Involuntary Organ Donors

This isn't a brand of economics I hope to cover here regularly, organ donation and sales, but Brad DeLong posted a report from the BBC on the involuntary sale of organs from prisoners in China, so I thought I'd follow up with more from Asia Pundit:

Asia Pundit: enjoy your new kidney: AsiaPundit did not write about recent allegations from the FLG that the Chinese government was maintaining a 6,000 person death camp/organ donation farm in Sujiatun. The reports originated from the Epoch Times and AP is generally skeptical about anything that is in that paper. That's especially true when reports allege such things as 100,000-person concentration camps and mystery night trains for prisoner transport. AP did, however, briefly join in a discussion on the report at the excellent Korea Liberator site.

The Epoch Times report was debunked by US consular staff. While that confirmed AP's original suspicions that the reports were exaggerated, it is not the end of the story. The British Transplantation Society is today alleging that China is killing prisoners so that organs are available on a just-in-time (JIT) basis.:

The British Transplantation Society says an accumulating weight of evidence suggests the organs of thousands of executed prisoners in China are being removed for transplants without consent. Professor Stephen Wigmore, who chairs the society's ethics committee, told the BBC that the speed of matching donors and patients, sometimes as little as a week, implied prisoners were being selected before execution. Chinese officials deny the allegations. Just last week a Chinese health official said publicly that organs from executed prisoners were sometimes used, but only with prior permission and in a very few cases. But widespread allegations have persisted for several years - including from international human rights groups.

AP takes these allegations more seriously than the ones in the Epoch Times. They are from a professional (and presumably apolitical) organization. The organization avoids the wild claims made by the FLG and, most importantly, the photo of the kidney container in the above-linked BBC report looks suspiciously like a Chinese take-away box. That's really creepy given the context.

AP will not, for the moment comment further on the reliability of the Epoch Times and will instead defer to Holidarity, who offers an excellent post on how many journalists view the group.:

They want us to pick up on their stories, but not ask too much about how and where they get them. While no one else in the world has bloody photos of massacres like Shanwei, they do. And their sources for these stories must be so delicate that extreme secrecy can be understood. But not absolute secrecy - because in the end that is only propaganda. And I think with something as big as this alleged organ harvesting in Shenyang, outside confirmation is the only thing that will make people believe it - and believe them. In a lot of ways, the Epoch Times' credibility is on the line with this one.

Comments

[a]

It is sad, but there might be something true in it --- particularly when the foreigners are flocking to China for a quick Kidney Transplant, something bad is happening.

Yesterday I saw on the skynews website of the footage of people being displaced by developers for high rises. It is also very sad.

China needs to progress to a country that respects human rights!

But then again, I have to also remember the history. The people who is actually running the legal system: the policemen, the jail wardens, the judges... there is also need for an independent monitoring system...

Things won't be changed over night, but I hope they will be changed.

[save_the_rustbelt]

I get insane watching American corporate and political leaders licking the shoes of the Chinese leaders.

How quickly we forget.

Anything for money.

[calmo]

Nothing like a good lickin Rusty, but I remind you of where and how this is unfolding: at the home (can we get folksy on this $100M mansion or what?) of the 'richest man in the world' ( not-so-folksy, I was surprised at this explicit description on NPR).
Those be the boots that are really getting polished/licked. That figure represents the few beneficiaries ("architects") of this globalization: the executives that have taken advantage of the labor arbitrage at the local labor pool's expense. [Sure the goods and services are cheaper, just not affordable to those who find themselves looking for work elsewhere --perhaps on the corner shining shoes.] (Ok, people U B right, there are jobs that Americans don't like to do, and shining shoes on the corner is one of them.)

Hu is a saint in comparison.

[charles liu]

Here's latest State Dept finding discrediting the Sujiatun concentration camp allegation:

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

(credit goes to smalldeadanimals)

And, if I may, submit that the BTS article did not mention Falun Gong or concentration camp.

To me the article's issue is consent for organ donation from the condemned.

IMHO beyond some cases of abuse and irregularity, there exist cultural and buddist religious foundation we in the West don't appreciate.

The condemned often are motivated to consent by their desire for redemption and last act of contribution to family, under their cultural and religious foundation.

Who are we to deny their reality and judge them with our Western sensitivity?

[a]

"licking the shoes of the Chinese leaders":

I actually think it is the mutual licking: microsoft desparately need China's massive market (imagine if the whole lot of Chinese IT professionals fall in love with Linux in stead; in many accounts, the privacy in China is doing MS a big favour); and China needs to buy something from US to please the US public.

I hope CHina/Hu understands that. Sometimes I think he is smart, but then, one has to wait for time to tell, I guess.

[a]

"Who are we to deny their reality and judge them with our Western sensitivity?"

I am not sure China should NOT be judged by western senstivity. I think China should be open to other cultures and learn the best from it. The respect of Human Rights is something lacking in Chinese Cultures, unfortunately. We need to learn and monitoring from BTS is welcome.

Today, after 20 years of interacting with the west, no matter how limited in many ways, ordinary Chinese people are familar with the words "Human Rights" and are learning to fight for it. I am proud of my people, and I wish they win.

[a]

I said "they", thought I wish to say "we", in "and I wish they win".

Only because I am thousands of miles away and not much involved.

[calmo]

I am an instant fan of 'a', but I am listening to that strange buddhist proof (maybe only tolerant) note from charles, too. This question "Who are we to judge?" is so important to raise and give a good mauling, --the best that your/my/any biased views can muster.

[camille roy]

As to this issue of 'Who are we to judge?', my response is 'bring it on.'

As in, let us expose the whole process, put it under international observation, and then let's see just how free this consent is.

Not free at all, I'd wager.

In fact, the suggestion that death for organ donation might be a free choice, under these conditions of dictatorship and suppression of information is absurd, IMHO.

This reminds me of how seclusion and veiling and various forms of oppression of women are justified as cultural practices what we in the west don't 'understand'. If that is the case, then why aren't the real conditions freely exposed, why isn't investigation encouraged, why are questions and dissent shut down?

I am proud to claim the value of human rights as one of my cultural values. I will not back down from the universality of those values to protect the abilities of dictatorial elites and oppressors in other cultures to abuse their own people.

[a]

"I am proud to claim the value of human rights as one of my cultural values."

Congratulations! I wish future generations of CHinese can proudly say that too.

[charles liu]

May I submit this article for your consideration:

Here's a report about a guy who turned himself in for killing his wife’s lover. Before he was to pay with his life, he decided to donate his organ as last act of redemption, and willed the organ donation compensation fund paid by the state to the vicitm’s family.

In his interview he indicated the reason he asked his lawyer to call for press, is to help bring awareness to organ donation in China.

http://news.sina.com.cn/s/p/2006-03-20/12299394605.shtml

[charles liu]

BTW, I'm not Chinese, as many Taiwanese-American would tell you.

[a]

"bring awareness to organ donation in China."

If that is needed, it is hard to imagine a large scale of prinsoners voluntarily donating their kidneys.
One story in the news is hardly the norm. Normally it is exceptional.

I, for one, am not assuming you a Chinese, especially when you so explicitly stating yourself as West. That is fine. I just don't agree with you that CHina can't be judged on human rights.

[charles liu]

(Sorry a, I'm just trying to head off any potential OT remarks - which happened in my own blog.)

Many such consent cases exist in China (some are made under care of legal representation as with Mr. Wang):

http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%CB%C0%C7%F4+%BE%E8+%C6%F7%B9%D9&sr=&z=cl=3&f=8&wd=%CB%C0%C7%F4+%BE%E8+%C6%F7%B9%D9+%C2%C9%CA%A6&ct=0

I agree China's human rights abuse should be examined, as with all human rights abusers in the world, especially our own USA.

[charles liu]

a, surely you see Wang was refering to awareness of organ donation by the Chinese population at large.

[a]

But, from your search link, I found this artcile:

http://lid.bokewu.com/blog36334.htm

It is clear that in China there is not much consensus on treating the organs of the executed, and many people are profitting from this legal loopholes. The lack of notion of "Human Rights" is evident there. Sure, they are "voluntary", but in the report, the families are not supposed to know...
================
彭把本子放回抽屉，压低嗓门说，“这是不能让人看到的。”不过，他又安慰说，死刑犯家属是不可能知道的。
================
Hope you can see the characters --- this level of secrecy! Sounds terribly bad.

The executed has no legal/human rights at all. The typical Chinese notions that once guilty one has no rights and no dignity is terribley backward.

Death Penalty is another issue. Many of my Chinese friends again have no problem with executing people, I do. I have to wait till the day that most of Chinese people have problem with that.

We need to learn to value life and value people's choice and rights.

[a]

one more quote from the same article (evidently, there is not much Voluntareering for the people on death roll):

死刑犯身份与其自由决定之间存在不可克服的矛盾。处于弱势地位的死刑犯，即使表示自愿捐赠器官，也不一定是其真实意愿，即使司法机关没有进行任何劝导、引诱、威逼，其法律地位也决定了不能认定其捐献器官意思表示是真实、自愿的。相反，应当原则上推定其为非自愿、非真实。不可否认，死刑犯中会有个别真实自愿的捐献者，但如果允许第一个死刑犯“自愿”捐献活体器官，且据此对其减轻处罚，随后更多出现的效仿者，则只能视为他人与司法制度的引诱，而不是真实自愿。

曲认为，允许死刑犯捐献器官还存在一个隐性危机，此举将可能诱导法院松弛“严格控制死刑适用”的刑事政策，以扩大死刑犯基数，从而人为地提高“自愿捐献器官”的死刑犯绝对数。

[Holly W.]

It's interesting to see the comments about the Epoch Times, since that paper gets passed out free in my local train station. I've looked at it a couple times but decided it seemed a little questionable. I'm glad to see my instincts were correct.

[charles liu]

a, remember what you said about "one story is hardly the norm"?

Yes, I agree with what you presented. I think it is fair to say this issue is not only debatable, the Chinese are debating it - as the Baidu search results show a range of opinions.

[in a supposedly "conditions of dictatorship and suppression of information" none the less]

To me this really demonstrates that China's problems isn't all that black and white. China too have their delimas and choices, and their own history to evaluate (and overcome).

To condem China with emotionally satisfying conclusion like "Not free at all, I'd wager." only serves ones ego, I submit.

[a]

Charles, I agree with you on comments like "red China", etc, which blinds one's judgement and makes one content with being ignorant.

Have you read the "China: the Balance Sheet"? I saw the authors several times on C-Span and I am impressed by their pragmatic and informed view on China. Not many US politicians have that quality.

[anne]

The discussion here is intelligent for what could be a too emotive subject. There are successes and failures in a radically developing country of 1.4 billion, in which as always in China regions can appear to be flying apart from the center and the struggle is to hold and direct hopefully benignly. I cannot imagine the Chinese leadership will allow such sales to continue if they are in any way significant now for such activities are inherently threatening of stability.

[charles liu]

a, thank you for quoting this:

"允许死刑犯捐献器官还存在一个隐性危机"

Do you think the Chinese people came to this conclusion on their own, or they came to this conclusion because Epoch Times NY made up "Auschwitz" story to smear Hu Jintao (who happens to be visiting US this week)?

Or even becuase of BTS' "not necessarily with consent" concern?

I would tend to think the current generation of Chinese already have human rights as one of their cultural values.

You should be very proud.

[a]

Charles, the quote came from "2005年7月4日，中国政法大学刑法学教授曲新久接受《凤凰周刊》采访时称", so the time does not allow for the Epoch article to work its magic, :).

I do know some Chinese legal scholars are quite progressive in pushing for a better legal system in China. Of the 1.4 billions, you may need just a couple of hundreds that really care. It is not hard, :).

[a]

New York Times runs a long long (10 pages) article on Google in China, quite interesting read (And Google said it is not the one to judge,:):

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/23/magazine/23google.html?ei=5094&en=934da6042d32bdd8&hp=&ex=1145505600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

[charles liu]

Sorry a, I think our conversation is getting a bit OT at this point. Maybe our host objects.

(Do you have a blog?)

If couple hundreds people is all you are looking for, they are there already.

Take this case for example. 150 Chinese farmers sued the National Land Resource Bureau. I believe this is one of those "state organ" that's under central government's control (at least provincial level).

The farmers lost. But they sucked it up and appealed their case - and they won:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/legal/2005-03/21/content_2722269.htm

If you are from Mainland China you probably know the municipality of Shanghai is directly under the central government's administration. It doesn't get much closer to Beijin than this.

Yet, 50 farmers sued the Shanhai Railway Bureau and won.

I don't know about you, but Baidu is full of stuff like this that never make the news in West. It's understandable since reporting good news about China doesn't pay the bill.

[charles liu]

http://www.chinacourt.org/public/detail.php?id=108019

(Opps, link for the Shanghai Rail story.)

[Mark Thoma]

No objection at all...

[Mark Thoma]

I've learned a lot from a's (and others) discussions here with various people about China.

[a]

Charles, I am from Mainland. I go home every other years and sometimes more often, to HangZhou.

I have to say that in terms of respecting people, Hangzhou is a better palce than ShangHai --- if you ever heard that one time, many cities (including ShangHai) were making laws that required the victims struck down by a car outside the "safety zone", like jaywalking, to pay the car owners repair fees. So in humane and upsetting that eventually the central government has to intervene and strike down the laws... HangZhou did not install that laws.

I have heard of cases where citizens sued the big companies or government branches and won... Thanks for the links and news! I only hope all the people whose houses are demolished and felt nowhere to go could turn to courts and try to argue for their cases! That way, it will force matters into laws and courts.

It is a process of learning --- I have to say that my parents generation, admitted themselves, have been totally tamed by the party. All their life, they were scared and they did what they were told to do. Their own rights, choices and happiness? They did not think much. Cultural revolution, political pressures... real terrifying times to live through. Both my parents were punished for not obeying completely.

Now, my generation: I chose my own fate, I came to the US (I never thought about it till I went to college), I read books my parents never heard of. But, after 14 years in US, I only found out that my parents knows about democracy as much as I do: it's accountability, my dad told me.

How can CHinese people don't care about Human rights? It affects them every day --- again, don't know if you heard about the death of a college students at city detention centers designed for poor peasants who have nowhere to go. There was such an uproar that eventually such detention centers were banned...

People are just learning and waking up.

I do have a question for you about Taiwan --- if you are old enough or know it from other sources. How did Taiwan transformed itself into today's democracy? If I got it right, Taiwan was under authoritarian control till Jiang Jingg Guo died in the 80's, right?

After all, we share a big common tradition and culture, so I think Taiwan is one big example for us to look at.

[calmo]

Yes, to second Marks comment, I'm only too happy to read 'a' and charle's comments.
My screen carries a lot of "???" , I suppose censored remarks that I have not seen before, but I would like to add the US does not have the world's highest Human Rights standards and, even if it did, there would always be room for improvement.
The Kentucky Fried Chicken container that is relabeled 'Kidney Transplant' is, well, a bit much. Just like the charge that execution of prisoners is conducted to facilitate the removal and sale of these organs. Just like many assorted and various activities that we see coming from Iraq and elsewhere that I am unable to detail. [Such a sensitive brute I be.] It may be necessary to graphically exhibit these abuses to draw attention to them, [This was a strategy that worked in Iraq.] but if the charges are not true, and only intended to denigrate China that is as reprehensible.
The buddhist view is not the prevalent view in China, unless you happen to be in Tibet, yes? It is a very compassionate view of the world, no?
I am unable to see how the buddhist could condone the practice of executing the prisoners to make organs available, but I can also see that healthy organs could be given (by prisoners who live in a society that has capital punishment) just prior to their execution. (Of course I think capital punishment is barbaric but tolerate those cultures who have not arrived at this stage of enlightenment.) [Of course you think that it's reprehensible that I am this tolerant and that I should overcome my tolerance and just shove it down the barbarian's throats: "Capital punishment is barbaric, you barbarians!"]

All I can say is, I'm off KFC now for good.

[a]

Sorry for the Chinese characters copied here which may not be displayable on your computer.

They are mainly the quotes from one law professor from Beijing arguing that people on death roll can hardly volunteer their organs because they are in such a weak position to bargain for anything at all (in Chinese law, the condemned has no right at all). He is also arguing that allowing people on death roll to donate their organs also opens up the possibility of abusing the system and artificially imposing more death penalty than necessary --- yes, the Chinese government is trying to lower the numbers of death sentences.

The article and interview was donein July 2005.

Chinese people are not big on donating their organs, that is why to suggest the people on death roll are willing to give away their organs smells fishy.

[calmo]

Thank you 'a' and it is 'Death Row' (from a row of cells ordered chronologically?) although your version put a smile on my face which I desperately needed to relieve me of this gruesome topic.
I wonder how many people are 'Big' on donating their organs? I think more people are coming around to the belief that this is a good thing (health care directive) to do. [I will get a Chinese character set from the internet --thank you for suggesting.]

[charles liu]

calmo, the ??? is probably Chinese characters your browser isn't displaying. For IE go to View>Encoding menu and choose Simplified Chinese (for TW use Traditional.)

a, I grew up under martial law in Taiwan. Frankly it didn't affect me much. I played Pacman and watched Star Wars, wore Nike shoes. The only thing that was a waste of time was the anti-communist indoctrination (PoliSci courses like Three Civic Principles where required in high school and college.)

I think for my parent's generation life was harsher, both economically and ideologically. Taiwan sold sugar and banana to Japan and made trinkets for export to America. Poorer families bring assembly work home and everyone work on them after dinner. ROC withdrew from (or got kicked out of) the UN. The 7th fleet's withdraw caused a rush at the US embassy that's shutting down.

My personal opinion is China pretty much is taking the path Taiwan took 10-20 years ago. When I was young my parents voted KMT because they were told to and Chiang wins in a landslide every time. People with connections made out like bandits when government auctioned off land they confiscated thru "land reform" decades ago.

Aren't all these things happening right now in Mainland?

I don't know when China will have a "multi-party democracy" the West demands, but as factionalized as CCP is, maybe they'll do one of those Dem/Repub split and magically have a political duopoly like we have in America.

I but I must say people on both sides of the straight have come a long way.

[a]

Calmo: thanks for pointing out my "roll".

Charles, thanks for telling me about Taiwan.

Was watching C-span on the "Human Rights in China", do not to know what to believe.

[charles liu]

a, about your eminent domain abuse comment earlier:

I think China's courts have improved to a point people do have alternatives when it comes to eminent domain or land use rights. Here's an example I found on Baidu.com:

http://www.9251.com/news/NewsShow.aspx?NewsID=1124161345486&ClassID=010202

124 families receives RMB$31,887,300 after 8 years of litigation seeking compensation for lost land.

They basically won an equivlant of class action. The Zhuhai court even extended claim period for two more years, so more residents who lost their land can file claims under this ruling.

[Bruce Webb]

Calmo I am pretty impressed. Both by the high level of discussion and the fact that Firefox rendered ALL of the Chinese characters without me having to make any special settings at all. I have no idea what the substance of the comments might actually be, that it is all playing out on the blog of a University of Oregon Economics Professor is fascinating. The world is shrinking, and quality of discussion draws quality.

I made the awful decision to move to the Dark Side when I bought a Windows based laptop just because national broadband access came built in. But I avoided the mistake of trying to access the WWW via IE.

"Come to the Light Side Calmo, a Google Package Download is only a click (or two away)". You will come for Google Earth, you will stay for Firefox.

[charles liu]

That's right, there's a congressional committee hearing featuring Harry Wu today. I'm just glad the concentration camp bit wasn't scheduled to come up.

I think our government knew they could't pull that off. From the research I've done, we knew the concentration camp allegation was bunk by March 21.

I really question why State Dept sat on this news until 4/15, Friday afternoon, knowing it won't make news until Monday. Is it so not to interrupt any anti-China protests that's already in motion over the weekend?

I don't want to believe that.

[a]

Calmo: Of course I think capital punishment is barbaric but tolerate those cultures who have not arrived at this stage of enlightenment.

My objection to Capital punishment is that, like in the US, it is normally the poor and less fortunate get to sentenced to deach penalty in China. I was assured by the mother of a friend who retired from a court in a southern city in China: yes, many mistakes were made, wrongful convictions were not rare. NYT won a Pullizer award for reporting that.

Unfortunately when I tried to raise the issue to my Chinese friends, and one Taiwanese friend, actually, :), they could not understand my concerns. For Chinese, the convicted is merely convicted. No chance that they might be innocent.

That is why I hope, one day people will realize, "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". Law should be just, and everyone should be protected from injustice.

[a]

Charles, thanks again for the good news! (the link did not work this time). It is great to know that people are learning to use laws to protect themselves!

China needs a lot of legal professionals. On the website for "China: the balance sheet", they reported that every year China has 800,000 Engineers graudating, only 150000 legal professionals.

The legal system also need more power. According to 贺卫方, a law professor of Beijing University, famous for his frankness, China's supreme court reports to the head of the police department. And then laws need to be more enforced --- there are people being detained without charge for months, even though laws prohibit that.

[Mark Thoma]

FYI - this is from tonight's Wall Street Journal:A Year-Long Ordeal
By WILLY LAM
April 20, 2006

Few cases expose more thoroughly China's repressive justice system than journalist Ching Cheong's ordeal. Mr. Ching marks the first anniversary of his unlawful detention in China on Saturday, though officially he still hasn't been charged with any crimes. Sure, China's state-run media has denounced him guilty of spying for Taiwan. But all signs are that Beijing doesn't have enough evidence to press formal charges.

Chinese leaders elaborately protest that such abuses are a thing of the past. One of Chinese President Hu Jintao's first public statements as Communist party chief in late 2002 was that officials "must uphold the authority of the constitution and the laws." Both Mr. Hu and Premier Wen Jiabao subsequently called on mainland officials to "administer according to law." Added impetus for reform of China's legal system came last year, when the country's normally docile press published a series of shocking accounts of miscarriages of justice, including the premature execution of criminals before all evidence had been properly evaluated.

Some small improvements have been made. Bowing to widespread international condemnation of the large number of death sentences in China, the Supreme People's Court last October set up a special office to hear appeals. Regulations also now ban police -- in most cases -- from holding suspects for more than 30 days without referring them to prosecutors or judicial authorities.

Last month, Jia Chunwang, China's top prosecutor and a former Minister of Public Security, claimed China now respected the legal rights of suspects. "No arrests should be made if [police officers are] not clear whether it is right to make an arrest or not," he said.

But the 55-year-old Singapore Straits Times journalist's ordeal reinforces how this is just rhetoric, at least when powerful government agencies are involved. Mr. Ching was not even "formally arrested" until nearly four months after his detention by agents of China's powerful Ministry of State Security last April. The official Xinhua news agency then ran a long report claiming that Mr. Ching had set up intelligence-gathering rings in China, passed sensitive political and military information to "spy agencies" abroad, and collected millions of Hong Kong dollars as reward. But the state media's evidence doesn't seem to be enough to prosecute Mr. Ching, even for a Chinese court. After Mr. Ching's dossiers was sent to prosecutors late last year, normally just a formality before a case goes to trial, they sent it back to Ministry of State Security in mid-February. That rare step suggests prosecutors found the evidence insufficient or unconvincing. However, under Chinese law, there is nothing to stop security agencies from insisting on additional time to gather -- or fabricate -- more convincing evidence.

Meanwhile, Mr. Ching's brothers and sisters have only been allowed two visits of around 30 minutes each, according to his wife, Mary Lau. But despite his ordeal, Mr. Ching has repeatedly refused to sign a confession, according to another relative.

Cases involving political prisoners or state secrets come directly under the jurisdiction of the powerful and secretive Political and Legal Commission of the Communist Party, which reports to the Politburo Standing Committee (PSC), the highest body of power in China. The commission is headed by PSC member Luo Gan, an East German-educated engineer who was the right-hand-man of former hard-line premier Li Peng.

Although the Bush administration has repeatedly expressed its concern about Mr. Ching's case, he lacks the sort of connections with the U.S. -- a passport, green card or employment by an American company -- that are all too often are a Chinese dissident's only hope of winning freedom. That leaves his friends and former classmates, who have been busy lobbying on his behalf, despondent about his future. Since national-security authorities risk losing "face" if they fail to find -- or confect -- enough evidence to convict Mr. Ching, that means his long ordeal is most likely far from over.

Mr. Lam is a Hong Kong-based journalist.

[calmo]

But Bruce, I am running Firefox and the "?" just got changed to script that is completely unintelligible. Oh well. [Thank you at anyrate charles for the guidance.]
Allow me a minor digression (esp since the discussion is so high quality and can stand a little dilution): Your remarks so kindly intended (how presumptious of me!):
The world is shrinking, and quality of discussion draws quality.

are also self-flattering (hell, that's better than self-denigrating!) and this always troubles me (the things I worry about --are you sure about this 'quality' thing?): that implicit in anyone giving this kind of commendation to another, is the presumption that the person issuing the praise is in a position to do so. (I wonder how clear that is?)[I wonder how diluted I can go with the quality digression?] Einstein's younger sister told him he was pretty clever and well, I guess she could have just up. [Ok, times up. I am too distracted to convey my difficulty.]

charles you have an organizational mind (atleast by my scattered standards), and I believe you are right about the premeditated stages, perhaps months of planning (in the case of Rove, years), that go into shaping public opinion for political ends.
Some would call your interpretation cynical, rather than merely skeptical, but I'm with you --I'd rather be called cynical than naive, stupid, ignorant, half-witted or worse (especially by the public relations staff).

How radiant our (yes, possessive) 'a' is!
Your idealism almost blinds me to the fact that your history, unlike mine, is likely filled with atrocities that did not shake your remarkably idealistic expectations/goals. I am in awe of you and your mighty "shoulds".
There is a large person behind this line people:
"That is why I hope.." , large enough to kindle what little hope I have in comparison --thank you for that.

[a]

Calmo, the big person is Martin Luther King --- I just went to Atlanta the past weekend. He was idealistic and courageous, and he helped change history of this country.

CHina, true, is a country full of atrocities from history. But she also had moments of glory and enlightment. No country is condemned by her history; everyone has a chance to redeem. Every moment we make a decision, it is a chance for betterment.

As for the ???, I asked a freind of mine, he said it is because your operating system might be quite old, :).

[a]

Mark, thanks for the article.

Mr. Ching's ordeal ran like a typical case story from traditional Chinese court system (the one that had been effective for thousands of years). Unlike the west in the past two hundreds of years, China lacks the basic notion that one is innocent untill proven guilty, and the laws first obilgation is to ensure people's rights. It is amazing that in the constitution, on the paper, you have all the rights but in reality, people don't; and somehow no one was bothered, that is, untill someone they know personally disappeared --- I am talking about myself. Ordinary people need to natually demand their rights --- that is happenning more often with the young generation, who don't know the life my parents generation has been through.

The government might be trying to live up to higher standard (some agencies mentioned in the article are exceptions); the system might be improving, though slowly; but, still lots of room for improvement.

[calmo]

'a' writes

"Unlike the west in the past two hundreds of years, China lacks the basic notion that one is innocent untill proven guilty, and the laws first obilgation is to ensure people's rights."

and I am reminded that aboriginals in this country in the last 200 years were guilty of being Indians --no need to even get as far as that fine distinction of innoncence or guilt.
Like women they made progress and gained the right to vote and hold property but discrimination continues if one looks at participation rates in nearly all "privileged" positions of our society.
I wonder if party officials in China have this basic notion of presumption of innocence when it comes to deciding their own infractions? (Does France also follow this legal principle?) [Is it merely our bias to consider this barbaric or is there something to recommend this other approach?]

You are right about Martin Luther King, but also Coretta, who like you (and hopefully many others) received little attention (except posthumously). But without that groundswell, those little voices, (the mighty little hopers), these 'Big Guns' are nowhere --big guns without ammunition. (You are unable to shake my admiration for you.) [Not to worry, I have a sack of it for this guy Bruce Webb too. You figure I may not be a competent dispenser of admiration?]

A thousand years of glacial-like tradition with its customs and practices (that accomodate a population density far greater than the west's), may not be as responsive to the popsicle-like cultural/economic changes that China has seen in the last 20-30 years. I am hopeful (and in no small part thanks to voices like yours) that China's emergence as an economic powerhouse will also bring those cultural values and, like the west, improving human rights.

btw, I am running XP and found all the options that charles noted but to no avail.

[a]

Calmo, I am a big fan of Bruce Webb too!
And I agree with you that Big Gun alone can't change history (that is why I used the word "help").

The exposure to the west since early 80's has been tremendous help to the CHinese people. We are learning what we have always lacked, and we are eager/humbled to learn! Thanks for all the interactions!

Though we had a history of thousands of years that at times were quite backward, we also have shown the amazing ability to learn. Women, for example, was second class in China for a long time, probably since the Song Dynasty a thousand years ago, when women were not allowed to go out of their yards and had to obey their husbands/sons all their lives. But in CHina today, you see that women are active in many areas and in the cities at least, enjoy great equality at home with their husbands... So we can learn, :).

Thanks for having hopes for my country!
In return, I am paraphasing Bates Gill, one of the authors of "China: the Balance Sheet":
"the U.S. has one of the most innovative political/economic systems that has been through various tests in the past; we should have confidence in our system"
while in comparison,
"China is still trying to find her way, facing lots of social/economic/politcal pressures."

Watching c-span always reminds me this is such a great country to admire.

[calmo]

Not that my admiration is fickle, but citing Mr Gates for anything other than his conspicuous personal wealth, is likely on a par with me citing Mao for his cultural reforms.
(The usual deference to Mr. Gates's wealth needs more scrutiny not less, and especially should not be confused with wisdom.)[It is not merely that Mr Gates is my junior in years, but his contribution (do not torture me by sighting his Foundation) as a model for human conduct is simply infantile --miles from the Dali Lama for instance.]
[The success he talks about is his, not his competitors, not his clients who have helped him become obscenely wealthy, and not the public who pay the exorbitant fees for the OS, fees that could be spent more widely and distributed more evenly.]
Ok, I have battered you enough with my ([parentheses]) and it is your turn to straighten me out about Mao who was maybe not the ogre/hero I have painted.

[a]

Calmo, Bates Gill, not Bill Gates.

I was contemplating the two names' alphabetical interchangeability (how do you call that in English?) while watching c-span too.

As for Mao --- currently I don't have much to offer, :), except saying that he is the creature of his time and culture, which I only hope is much different in China now.

[anne]

Jim Yardley and Joseph Kahn have been writing on the Chinese legal system and evolution of the system for several years and have this week won the Pulitzer Prize for the reporting. I suggest the articles strongly, which are not sensational but thoughtful and fair.

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/31/international/asia/31china.html?ex=1293685200&en=9747573003f93202&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

December 31, 2005

Rule by Law
In Worker's Death, View of China's Harsh Justice
By JIM YARDLEY

[Begin here and read back.]

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/28/international/asia/28land.html?ex=1293426000&en=4f88869907b708e7&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

December 28, 2005

When Chinese Sue the State, Cases Are Often Smothered
By JOSEPH KAHN

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/26/international/asia/26china.html?ex=1293253200&en=25d3622e12c095a0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

December 26, 2005

Seeking a Public Voice on China's 'Angry River'
By JIM YARDLEY

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/13/international/asia/13lawyer.html?ex=1292130000&en=7f98b27b303c18ce&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

December 13, 2005

Legal Gadfly Bites Hard, and Beijing Slaps Him
By JOSEPH KAHN

[a]

Anne, thanks for the posts!

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/international/asia/28judge.html?ex=1290834000&en=ace85e7f20820210&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

November 28, 2005

A Judge Tests China's Courts, Making History
By JIM YARDLEY

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/12/international/asia/12china.html?ex=1289451600&en=d9fa3c6d21b5104d&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

November 12, 2005

Desperate Search for Justice: One Man vs. China
By JIM YARDLEY

[anne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/21/international/asia/21confess.html?ex=1284955200&en=6039e7f5b0deb5bc&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

September 21, 2005

Deep Flaws, and Little Justice, in China's Court System
By JOSEPH KAHN

[Remember, there is and will be an evolution.]

[calmo]

My apologies for scrambling the names Bill Gates and Bates Gill --the gods are after me.
Listening to NPR coverage today of Hu's visit I noticed that the heckler got in with a Falon Gong press card to do her job. I thought this spoke volumes about our Presidential Security or whoever it is that makes sure the program is not interupted. I gave it a 2% chance that it was deliberately passed. The meeting I thought refected the foreign minister's lack of progress and Bush's need for a photo opportunity to rescue his bad poll numbers.

[David]

I think what is interesting about this is that the British report is validating that organ harvesting IS going on in China.

Whether you take ET seriously or not - doesn't the British report pretty much validate what the ET has been saying all along?

How hard is it to say a prisoner died, and THEN you took the organ. (maybe the prisoner died on the operating table? )

So perhaps ET is a reliable news organization after all?

- Dave

[bobby fletcher]

David, the BBC article on consent by the condemned made no mention of Falun Gong, nor their claim of targeted genocide, vivisection(live organ harvesting).

So how does it validate what Epoch Times is saying? As to reliability and independence of Epoch Times, are you aware of ET's role as Falun Gong's propaganda outlet, and its finiancial link to Falun Gong leadership?

IMHO who pays for ET is not a secret. Here's the money trail found in non-profit declarations (Form 990, Page 2, Part III c):

Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004:
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/760/692/2002-760692185-1-9.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2003-760692185-1-9.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2004-760692185-1-9.pdf

Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004:
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/043/576/2002-043576893-1-9.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/043/576/2003-043576893-1-Z.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/043/576/2004-043576893-02038ba1-9.pdf

(These are but two examples of the hundreds of FLG non-profits in US.)

[Bob Waters]

Mr. Fletcher (not his real name) is a virtually full-time defender of the Chinese government who claims that the Tinanmen Square massacre wasn't a massacre, that there is complete religious freedom in China (though he defends the illegality of "child indoctrination" through Sunday School!), and says that the United States is a greater mass murderer than the Chinese regime- in fact the greatest mass murderer in history, with more than seventy seven million victims!

A Google search on his name, and a glance at what he has written elsewhere, will assist in judging his credibility.

[bobby fletcher]

Bob Waters, your false witness here just got you in trouble with your maker. I'm neither virtually full-time, nor am I defending the Chinese government. My commentary on Passive Journalism in no way said TAM wasn't a massacre.

No where have I ever said there's complete religious freedom in China. I'll challange you again.

Bob, when you worship at the alter of Falun Gong politics, who's really sitting in your throwne? The fact is simple, you can't serve two masters.

[Makina]

Hey guys,

I thought you might be interested in reading this piece about Bobby Fletcher/Charles Liu who's commented on your blog. He's been all over the blogosphere discrediting the organ harvesting report. Have a look.

Western Standard (Alberta): Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign
http://organharvestinvestigation.net/media/WesternStandard_040907.htm

April 9, 2007 Monday
Final Edition

HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting,

China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard

He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone--anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government "harvests" and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong--the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light--and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China's Communist government. And he's not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.

Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters--in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer--have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone's time.

It's a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as "a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It's just a bunch of blog BS." As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, "My position is that I simply don't agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, . . . and recently it's morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that's going to be hurting people," he says. As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.

He doesn't really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called "The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre" under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard's online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at at least ten times that).

Liu's actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department.

Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China's macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing.

"[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair," says Kilgour. "I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do."

Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour's co-author, David Matas, really doesn't know what to make of Liu. "I don't know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government," Matas says.

The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians--and their staff--prior to the meetings. "The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people," Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we're meeting with, where and when." He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he's ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.

GRAPHIC:
Colour Photo: CP, Dave Cahn; David Kilgour (left) and David Matas, co-authors of a report on China's organ harvesting industry: How does Liu know who they're meeting with?

LOAD-DATE: March 29, 2007

[A Paul]

http://news.google.com/news?q=Kilgour+Matas It's not hard to see Kilgour and Matas's schedule, considering that FLG spammed the hell out of it.

And worth noting is http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com/2007/04/epoch-times-reporters-gone-wild.html. The pot calling the kettle black eh?