« Sharing the Benefits from Trade | Main | Stiglitz: A Progressive Response to Globalization »

Apr 02, 2006

The Debate over Immigration

The NY Times takes on the immigration debate with this article focusing on whether there are jobs Americans won't do. One dimension of this issue is what economists call the reservation wage, the wage below which a person would prefer not working to working. There are jobs almost all of us will do if the expected wage is high enough (shows like Fear Factor?), and there are jobs, seemingly good jobs, that few of us will do if the wage is too low. Reservation wages vary by person, according to the level of unemployment compensation, the expected probability of getting a job offer, alternative income sources, by occupation, the previous wage, the length of the unemployment spell, it can vary across countries, and in many other dimensions. Thus, the question about who will do what job is partly a question about differences in reservation wages between the immigrant and domestic populations. The reservation wage and willingness to take particular jobs for a young worker who can move back home during the job search may be quite a bit different from an immigrant without such fallback support even though both may have the same underlying work ethic (the graphics are cut from this larger figure):

Immigrants and the Economics of Hard Work, by John M. Broder, NY Times: It is asserted both as fact and as argument: the United States needs a constant flow of immigrants to perform jobs Americans will not stoop to do. But what if those jobs paid $50 an hour, with benefits, instead of $7 or $10 or $15?"

Of course there are jobs that few Americans will take because the wages and working conditions have been so degraded by employers," said Jared Bernstein, of the liberal Economic Policy Institute. "But there is nothing about landscaping, food processing, meat cutting or construction that would preclude someone from doing these jobs on the basis of their nativity. Nothing would keep anyone, immigrant or native born, from doing them if they paid better, if they had health care."

The most comprehensive recent study of immigrant workers comes from the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that, unlike Mr. Bernstein's, advocates stricter controls on immigration. The study, by the center's research director, Steven A. Camarota, found that immigrants are a majority of workers in only 4 of 473 job classifications — stucco masons, tailors, produce sorters and beauty salon workers. But even in those four job categories, native-born workers account for more than 40 percent of the work force. ...

"The idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is economic gibberish," Mr. Camarota said. "All the big occupations that immigrants are in — construction, janitorial, even agriculture — are overwhelmingly done by native Americans." But where they compete for jobs, he said, the immigrants have driven up the jobless rate for some Americans. According to his study, published in March, unemployment among the native born with less than a high school education was 14.3 percent in 2005; the figure for the immigrant population was 7.4 percent.

While Mr. Bernstein would agree that the least-educated American workers are at a disadvantage, he does not favor curbs on immigration. Even the least-skilled Americans benefit from the presence of a large pool of immigrant workers, Mr. Bernstein said. He said that the 11 million illegal immigrants are consumers, too, creating demand for goods and services and the jobs they produce. He also said their willingness to work at low wages helps keep inflation in check, benefiting the nation as a whole.

"It's quite clear that immigrants lead to lower prices of goods and services, and the lower inflation helps boost the economy..." Mr. Bernstein said. "You have a significant increase in the labor supply due to immigrant inflows, yet the wage effects seem isolated among the least educated, and they're not huge."

But George J. Borjas, a professor of economics ... at ... Harvard University, said he believed that the flow of migrants had significantly depressed wages for Americans in virtually all job categories and income levels. His study found that the average annual wage loss for all American male workers from 1980 to 2000 was ... 4 percent, and nearly twice that, in percentage terms, for those without a high school diploma. The impact was also disproportionately high on African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, Professor Borjas found. "What this is, is a huge redistribution of wealth away from workers who compete with immigrants to those who employ them," he said.

There is one place and one category of work in which the "jobs Americans will not do" mantra appears to be close to true —the salad bowl of California. Tim Chelling, the communications director for the Western Growers Association, a cooperative of big farm operators, said that last winter growers in California's Imperial Valley needed 300 workers to harvest lettuce and broccoli.

They went to the local unemployment office, he said, and posted a notice seeking workers, who would be paid about $9 an hour and receive bare-bones health insurance. "Apparently one guy showed up, and he didn't last through the first morning," Mr. Chelling said. All the jobs went to Mexican laborers, most of them probably illegal, he said.

Mr. Chelling, whose group supports liberalized immigration laws and guest worker programs, argued that the use of immigrant labor was not a question of money, though growers certainly prefer to pay low wages to keep costs down. Farm labor is back-breaking, he said, requiring endurance, dexterity and patience that few Americans possess. ...

African-American[s], noted Ronald W. Walters, a professor of government and politics at the University of Maryland ... are directly threatened by the huge influx of illegal immigrants... African-Americans are competing for jobs in construction, hotels and restaurants, meat packing and textiles, he said, and they lose out to immigrants willing to accept lower pay and fewer benefits. "The African-American leadership has a lot of angst about this," he said, adding: "It's not just a black problem, but we are the most acutely affected. The fact is, it's hurting us."

Joel Kotkin, a fellow at the New America Foundation, a public policy institute, said that the American economy is large enough to absorb most of the new immigrants without pushing too many native-born Americans to the margins. But he said the situation could change dramatically if the economy were to enter a downturn, particularly in the housing sector where thousands of immigrants are laborers. If the housing bubble popped, Mr. Kotkin said, competition for the remaining jobs would be fierce and could stoke anti-immigrant sentiments. ...

    Posted by Mark Thoma on Sunday, April 2, 2006 at 01:23 AM in Economics, Income Distribution, Unemployment | Permalink | TrackBack (1) | Comments (28)



    TrackBack

    TrackBack URL for this entry:
    http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451b33869e200d8345c9fb969e2

    Listed below are links to weblogs that reference The Debate over Immigration:

    » Economics of Illegal Immigrants from The Lone Elm

    There are a couple of very helpful discussions of the economics at play affecting employment and the relative impact of illegal immigrants. First, Mark Thoma at Economist's View has a very clear exposition of the situation and pulls together a [Read More]

    Tracked on Apr 02, 2006 at 06:40 AM


    Comments

    Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.


    Movie Guy says...

    NY Times Article:

    "The most comprehensive recent study of immigrant workers comes from the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that, unlike Mr. Bernstein's, advocates stricter controls on immigration. The study, by the center's research director, Steven A. Camarota, found that immigrants are a majority of workers in only 4 of 473 job classifications — stucco masons, tailors, produce sorters and beauty salon workers. But even in those four job categories, native-born workers account for more than 40 percent of the work force."


    NY Times Graphic Link:

    "About 4.9 percent of all workers in the United States are illegal immigrants."

    "Since 2000, an estimated 850,000 unauthorized immigrants have entered the United States each year, a population roughly equivalent to a city the size of Indianapolis."

    "11.1 million illegal immigrants - 7.2 million working; 3.9 million not working."

    "Illegal immigrants origin:
    - 56% Mexico
    - 22% other Latin America
    - 13% Asia
    - 6% Canada & Europe
    - 3% Africa & Other"

    "But actions against businesses that employ illegal immigrants (here, warnings of impending fines) by 2004 had virtually stopped." Three (3) warnings nationwide in 2004.

    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 12:20 AM

    Movie Guy says...

    U.S. IMMIGRATION - A to Z

    For starters, the U.S. population projections through 2050 may capture your attention. And the 'Legal and Illegal Immigration Information and Costs for All 50 States' references are excellent.

    Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR)

    FAIR Site Map - All principal subjects

    Projecting U.S. Population to 2050

    Legal and Illegal Immigration Information and Costs for All 50 States

    Immigration 101 - A Primer on Immigration and the Need for Reform

    Frequently Asked Questions About Immigration Policy and Its Effects

    Answers to Tough Questions About Immigration

    National Security: Illegal and Legal Immigration

    Illegal Immigration

    What's Wrong With Illegal Immigration?

    The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration - The Huddle Study

    Uncontrolled Immigration and the U.S. Healthcare System - Executive Summary

    Breaking the Piggy Bank: How Illegal Immigration is Sending Schools Into the Red

    Deleting American Workers: Abuse of the Temporary Foreign Worker System in the High Tech Industry


    STATE LEVEL DATA AND INFORMATION

    Legal and Illegal Immigration Information and Costs for All 50 States

    "FAIR's factsheets examine the real-life impact of mass immigration policies in each of the 50 states, examining factors such as poverty, housing, smog, water, schools, land density, labor, traffic, farmland, and health care and other services."

    The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians: Executive Summary

    The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Arizonans: Executive Summary

    Costs of Illegal Immigration to Texans: Executive Summary

    Costs of Illegal Immigration to Floridians: Executive Summary (Revised 10/05)


    MODERN U.S. IMMIGRATION LAWS

    1965 Act "The INA"
    The Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1965
    (cite to 79 Statutes-at-Large 911, October 3, 1965)

    - Abolished the national origins quota system (from Immigration Act of 1924 and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952) eliminating
    national origin, race, and ancestry as bases for immigration to the United States.
    - Established allocation of immigrant visas of a first-come, firstserved basis, under a seven-category preference system for relatives of U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens and for persons with special occupational skills needed in the U.S.
    - Established a category of immigrants not subject to numerical restrictions: immediate relatives (parents, spouses, children) of U.S. citizens.
    - Limited Eastern Hemisphere immigration to 170,000 and placed a ceiling for the first on Western Hemisphere immigration (120,000). However,
    neither the preference categories nor per-country limit were applied to the Western Hemisphere.

    The 1965 Act took one of the elements of the previous system, the admission of nuclear family members, and made it the centerpiece of a new system whose goal was the reunification of extended family members. Previous law confined admissions to the nuclear family (spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens); the new system of ‘family reunification’ made other relatives (such as siblings and adult sons and daughters) eligible as well.

    The change to family reunification shifted the source immigration flow away from the developed, western countries toward the closer and more overpopulated developing countries.


    1986 Act "IRCA"
    The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986
    (cite to 100 Statutes-at-Large 3359, November 6, 1986)

    - Created sanctions prohibiting employers from knowingly hiring, recruiting, or referring for a fee illegal alien workers.
    - Authorized the legalization of non-excludable illegal aliens who had resided in the U.S. since January 1, 1982.
    - Created a new classification of seasonal agricultural worker.

    As legal immigration from developing countries rose, so did the opportunities and motivation for illegal immigration. To deal with the growing population of resident illegal aliens, Congress gave an amnesty to those illegal aliens who could show that they had been resident for some time (over three million of them) and created 'employer sanctions' making it illegal to knowingly hire illegal aliens.


    1990 Act "ImmAct90"
    The Immigration Act of November 29, 1990
    (cite to 104 Statutes-at-Large 4978, November 29, 1990).

    - Increased total immigration under an overall ‘flexiblecap’ of 675,000, to consist of 480,000 family-sponsored, 140,000 employment based, and 55,000 'diversity lottery' immigrants.
    - Revised all grounds for exclusion and deportation, significantly rewriting the political and ideological grounds.
    - Revised the nonimmigrant temporary worker categories.

    A compilation of rather technical changes to existing laws, the 1990 Act increased the level of legal immigration by roughly 40 percent. One obvious change made by the 1990 Act was the addition of a ‘visa lottery’. Because of the dynamics of family reunification, a few developing countries tend to squeeze most other countries out of the immigration flow. To compensate, the 55,000 admissions in the visa lottery were slated for applicants from the ‘squeezed out’ countries.


    1996 Welfare Act "PRAWORA"
    The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act
    (cite to 110 Statutes-at-Large 2105, August 22, 1996).

    - Established measures to control U.S. borders, protect legal workers through worksite enforcement, and remove criminal and other deportable
    aliens.
    - Placed added restrictions on benefits for aliens.
    - Increased penalties for document fraud and benefit fraud.

    Congress passed this bill to deter illegal immigration by better protecting the borders, and by better detecting and removing illegal aliens from the U.S. IIRAIRA was originally part of a larger bill (the unpassed Immigration Reform Act of 1995) that would have reformed the legal immigration system as well by eliminating certain visa categories. Congress has so far declined to return to the issue of reforming the legal immigration system.


    All text quoted from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR).

    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 12:59 AM

    Movie Guy says...

    CALIFORNIA: THE U.S. IMMIGRATION YUM YUM MODEL

    I provided a point-by-point presentation of the problems that the State of California is facing with illegal and legal immigration as well as general population growth in the comments section of a main post on another blog, Legal versus Illegal Immigration - Tuesday, March 28, 2006

    The State of California analysis is available under a three part post titled, CALIFORNIA: THE U.S. IMMIGRATION YUM YUM MODEL. The link takes you to the first post.

    The review includes:

    California Illegal Immigrants
    California Population
    California Impact of Immigration on Education
    California Educational Costs of Illegal Immigrants
    California Health Care
    California Medical Costs of Illegal Immigrants
    California Poverty
    California Water Supply
    California Air Pollution
    California Traffic
    California Disappearing Open Space
    California Crowded Housing
    California Lack of Affordable Housing
    California Farmland Loss
    California Illegal Immigrants Incarceration Costs

    This type of basic analysis can be performed for existing and projected conditions and population trends in any State using the information available from FAIR's Legal and Illegal Immigration Information and Costs for All 50 States as well as other sources.

    In my judgment, the State of California is not the model of state financial management, immigration, population growth, or environmental preservation that any other State should embrace. I fully expect California to sink further under the weight of its financial mess, lack of supporting infrastructure, and disproportional illegal and legal immigration growth. California should be in serious trouble no later than year 2025. It may be the case that 2015 is a more realistic crisis trigger.


    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 01:15 AM

    dryfly says...

    We are all swimming up Niagara Falls. That NY Times piece convinced me even more this is like water - lotsa water - flowing downstream..

    The two populations are merging whether we like it or not. They are in my neighborhood & I'm about as far from the border as you can get.

    The gov'ts (both Mexican & American) need to either realize this or admit it if they do realize it... then develop a plan and implement in an organized fashion. I wonder what Brownie's been up to since Katrina? Maybe he's available.

    I see no way to stop this just manage it better.

    Posted by: dryfly | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 07:13 AM

    ken melvin says...

    Very Good Article. Dean Baker on the Friday's Newshour was good. Every American should hear what his opposite, the CATO guy, had to say everyday between now and the November election.

    Posted by: ken melvin | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 07:30 AM

    Betsy L. Angert says...

    Dear Mark . . .

    I trust you know that I want to contribute to this discussion. I know you are aware, this issue means much to me. I have written four missives on the topic and have been dumbfounded to discover how many supposed liberals are not when speaking of immigration!

    Even the article you shared “ Invest Globally, Stagnating Locally,” for me, challenges the argument that wages are lower because of illegal immigration. [Please note, the use of the phrase illegal immigration differs from a term which denies the legitimacy or value of human beings.]

    Nevertheless, I am baffled by the shortsightedness of Americans. The doctrines specified, I think reflect a mentality of “ not in my backyard,” or “Let me and mine in, then close the door.” These self-serving philosophies seem to permeate this debate.

    Inconsistency appears to be the norm. People pounce on the idea of the law; yet, they are willing to give amnesty.

    They speak of walls and forget what history has taught us of these. We are one world. No one is isolated or insulated; nor can any of us protect ourselves from outside influences. We need to work together in unity, worldwide and realize, just as the small wave, we are all part of the ocean! At least that is what I think.

    I feel certain most of your readers may disagree, However, I offer links to my posts and invite all to review and comment.
    • IMMIGRATION ISSUES, “WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH?” ©
    • IMMIGRANTS TO AMERICA, PEOPLE WITH OR WITHOUT PAPERS ©
    • THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION, MEXICAN MIGRANTS ©
    • “REINVENTED SLAVERY,” ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION ©

    May your life be full and fulfilling. May abundance be yours . . . Betsy
    Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

    Posted by: Betsy L. Angert | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 08:29 AM

    a says...

    Betsy L. Angert,

    thanks for your posts and review of the immigration hisotry of USA in your blogs.

    It is so good to know Amercains like you. I think, to me (I am an immigrant from China, have been here for 13 years), that is what makes this country so great and so admirable.

    I don't plan to stay in USA forever, but people like you, like Prof. Stiglitz, and many others who are true humanists who represnets what USA should represnt, are the American people I will always remember whereever I go.

    Posted by: a | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 08:54 AM

    slink says...

    if american citizens had an inalienable job right


    lets say under
    the broad wings of" pursuit of happiness "

    most of" the legitimate "
    undoc immigration fear would evaporate among uz

    its job scarcity itself
    that leads to splash pans full of joblessness

    we need a WPA type mop up operation

    my guess twn million jobs on the public account oughta do the trick

    total tab ???

    250 billion or so
    scale cxomparisons

    two foreign sand war
    going on simultaneously

    Posted by: slink | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 08:58 AM

    ca says...

    Betsy - some realism. Very few who think through this problem believe in completely unrestricted immigration. If you do, then please think it through more.

    If not, and almost everyone falls into this category, then it's only a matter of degree, a matter of where to draw the line. Once drawn, and I would guess you would in fact draw one somewhere (and then we could give you the not in my backyard treatment), then there will be illegal and legal immigrants. Would we then be justified in calling you heartless for having defined people as illegal (you can choose whatever term you want to try and make it something else, but they are in fact illegal under the law).

    Where to draw the line is a matter of degree, not a matter of good and evil people, heartless people, or anything like that. Is your job threatened by immigration?

    Posted by: ca | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 09:45 AM

    Winslow R. says...

    Slink wrote:


    "total tab ???

    250 billion or so
    scale cxomparisons

    two foreign sand war
    going on simultaneously "


    Excellent point that I would like to see in the public debate with neo-liberal economists with their desire to minimize the government influence on the economy.

    I would add that money spent on untapped labor produces goods and services that would add to the tax base, real wealth and therfore GDP with the least amount of government influence. There would be a decrease in crimes and the resultant drop in the need for prisons and police. Wars, another form of government employment, can do some of those things but not nearly so well.

    Posted by: Winslow R. | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 09:48 AM

    Betsy L. Angert says...

    Dear A . . .

    Your words warm my heart. I could comment further; however, it sounds as though you truly understood what I was intending to say in my writing. I thank you for visiting my site and for sharing your thoughts.

    I think any human, prefers to live where there heart is. Perhaps that is why you do not plan to stay here. While people move for economic or political reasons, they leave their love where their friends and families are. If only we as a worldwide community would work together as one. After all, physically, we truly are.

    A, your understanding my expressions means much. Again, may I state my gratitude.

    May your life be full and fulfilling. May abundance be yours . . . Betsy
    Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

    Posted by: Betsy L. Angert | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 01:10 PM

    Betsy L. Angert says...

    Dear ca . . .

    I never mentioned open borders and thank you for thinking you know my intentions, even if your impression is disparate to any of my written words.

    Empathy, understanding, and relating to persons’ circumstances, and the history of similar, does not suggest that what was, is, or will be needs to be the same.

    Einstein stated, “We cannot solve a problem with the same mind that created it.”

    Abraham Maslow offered, “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.”

    Possibly, dear ca, you might look beyond the world that you know. Solutions are not as limited as closing or open borders.

    May your life be full and fulfilling. May abundance be yours . . . Betsy
    Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

    Posted by: Betsy L. Angert | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 01:13 PM

    ca says...

    "Solutions are not as limited as closing or open borders."


    If you have rules at all, the borders are closed to some. Aren't they? For them, it is as simple as open or closed.

    Are you saying the door shouldn't be closed to anyone? I can't tell what your policy would be.

    Lots of quotes, lots of feel good stuff, but what is your solution, completely open, or closed to some? And if closed to some, to whom? Somebody has to make that choice. Who will you exclude and on what basis? There are no "nails" in that question, and no policy hammer, it requires a very refined, very specific policy response. Quotes are easy. Answers are hard.

    That's a hard question, and it makes some people illegal (and it is as stark as that - quoting Einstein or others that were let in because of their high-skill won't change that). But it has to be answered explicitly for rules to mean anything. You get in. You don't.

    And if your answer is completely open doors, good luck...


    "May abundance be yours . . ." but not, with thought and careful policy, at the expense of others.

    Posted by: ca | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 01:33 PM

    ca says...

    One follow up, and I'm done. I'm sounding a a lot harsher than I am on this.

    Here's what it comes down to. I don't think I have the right to look a poor person in the eyes and tell them that an 8% wage cut is small (that's what the evidence I've read that has been posted here has said, 8%).

    You can, I won't.

    Thanks.

    Posted by: ca | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 01:44 PM

    Movie Guy says...

    There's a cartoon in the New Yorker that sums up where we are. Two Indians peer through the grass as the Mayflower comes into Plymouth Rock in 1620 loaded with pilgrims, with one saying to another: "Looks like we're going to need an immigration policy." - BBC News

    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 01:48 PM

    a says...

    Dear Betsy L. Angert,

    Reason to go is the same as the reason to come: to see and live in a culture that is different from the one I am used to. I strongly feel time to go is here. Since I have been away from China for so long, certainly going back feels like going to a new place... but then the world is big, going home seems too early, :).

    "If only we as a worldwide community would work together as one. After all, physically, we truly are."
    I agree with you, only if we can live up to that! It is not easy but it is worthy of trying, at least. That is why, in the shouting over immigrantion and outsourcing, your post draws so much respect from me! Thanks!

    A

    Posted by: a | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 03:13 PM

    dryfly says...

    "Looks like we're going to need an immigration policy."

    Movie Guy - check out the book '1491'... what new archeological evidence is saying about what the Americas looked like prior to Columbus. Immigration doesn't always benefit the locals already there... that is certainly for sure.

    Posted by: dryfly | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 03:18 PM

    save_the_rustbelt says...

    Back to the topic of "jobs Americans won't do."

    Having grown up with migrant workers ( and having picked more than a few tomatos) there are certainly seasonal jobs for which migrants are well suited, simply in terms of moving the work force to the right place at the right time.

    Many of the migrants families I knew had made the same circuit through the US each year for decades (and some of the families made quite good money, although it was tough on the children).

    This is not the same as the current mad dash across the border with no rhyme or reason, which is not sustainable.

    Posted by: save_the_rustbelt | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 05:30 PM

    dryfly says...

    This is not the same as the current mad dash across the border with no rhyme or reason, which is not sustainable.

    Define what you mean by 'not sustainable'.

    'Not sustainable' in the sense it can't last for long without negative effects... or 'not sustainable' in that the forces driving it will soon come to an end? I see the former being true but not the latter.

    Posted by: dryfly | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 07:19 PM

    Movie Guy says...

    Dryfly,

    Yes, that is an excellent book (I haven't all of it, though).

    Here are a few related links that others may find interesting:

    1491
    Lengthy article by Charles C. Mann
    Atlantic Monthly
    March 2002


    America's Pristine Myth
    September 01, 2005 Edition
    Christian Science Monitor


    Author of '1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus' speaks
    Part I
    December 20, 2005

    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 07:43 PM

    Movie Guy says...

    oops...

    I'll try that again.

    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 07:44 PM

    Movie Guy says...

    Dryfly,

    Yes, that is an excellent book (I haven't all of it, though).

    Here are a few related links that others may find interesting:


    1491
    Lengthy article by Charles C. Mann
    Atlantic Monthly
    March 2002

    America's Pristine Myth
    September 01, 2005 Edition
    Christian Science Monitor

    Author of '1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus' speaks
    Part I
    December 20, 2005

    Author of '1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus' speaks
    Part II
    December 20, 2005

    Posted by: Movie Guy | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 07:46 PM

    dryfly says...

    Thanks for the links MG - I'm reading the book now. very enlightening.

    Posted by: dryfly | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 08:06 PM

    save_the_rustbelt says...

    dryfly:

    "Not sustainable' in the sense it can't last for long without negative effects..."

    The negative effects are already here.

    Agree completely.

    Posted by: save_the_rustbelt | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 08:09 PM

    Betsy L. Angert says...

    Dear ca . . .

    I realize, even in my sleepy stupor, when I answered this afternoon, I was influenced by what felt as bombardment of attacks or misinterpretations from a long-standing friend. He continually insisted I wanted open borders, which I never said. It seemed you were going there as well. I only now re-read, in full, your words and it occurs to me you were not necessarily going there; however, were going to his second stance. You want me to offer a “simple” solution and ignore what I am offering, a worldwide approach. I want an international union, unity, and for each of us t realizes we are on this planet together.

    It is not American immigration, or migration to the Netherlands, another country experiencing problems with an influx of people. It the is distribution of people, professions, poverty . . .

    I believe people rarely leave what they truly love. If they do leave serene circumstances, it is often a well-planned and temporary transition. I realize there are exceptions, which takes me to my true thought. If only the world or any aspect of it were “simple”. Life is complex. For centuries we write, chapter, verse, books, and volumes on the ameba, a single cell. We research and still are baffled by what appears so simple. Consider the atom.

    Ca, when people discuss immigration, they are not upset by the specifics, as much as the emotions evoked. Listen carefully you will hear what communication researchers acknowledge. Humans have emotions and only pretend to be profound and rational.

    I think the most affective solutions will be complex, involve more than America, and will honor human emotions, and the unpredictable energies they create.

    I apologize for my earlier reactionary stance. There has been toooooo much mud slung at me, or my words, or more precisely, a misinterpretation of these. I was and am tired.

    The abundance explanation is another too long writing for this comment. I will offer it later.

    May life bring you peace, prosperity, pleasant dreams becoming the best of your reality, your living of life. . . Betsy
    Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

    Posted by: Betsy L. Angert | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 09:16 PM

    Betsy L. Angert says...

    Dear A . . .

    Again my sincere thanks for understanding this . . .” "If only we as a worldwide community would work together as one. After all, physically, we truly are."

    May I state that I agree with you, “If we can live up to that! It is not easy but it is worthy of trying, at least.” Sadly, it seems people seek television solutions, an introduction, body, climax, and resolution, all in twenty-two minutes. Minds seem stuck in what they know, war, walls, what they believe is “workable,” and “measurable.”

    Einstein destroyed his own career when confronted with the reality that energy is not as simple as he originally calculated. Sigh, such sadness.

    A, as long as there are those such as we are, people that can understand the abstract and strive to create it . . . I trust.

    May life bring you peace, prosperity, pleasant dreams becoming the best of your reality, your living of life. . . Betsy
    Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

    Posted by: Betsy L. Angert | Link to comment | Apr 02, 2006 at 09:27 PM

    save_the_rustbelt says...

    While I believe a regular stream of immigrants is good for the country it does not make sense for 90% of them to be from Mexico.

    There are 140 + countries in the world and we should have some sort of quota and pass it around to various countries. (I suppose on paper we already do but the southern border makes that a joke).

    Posted by: save_the_rustbelt | Link to comment | Apr 03, 2006 at 05:48 AM

    Betsy L. Angert says...

    Dear ca . . .

    You asked for my plans, as has another. I give you my introduction. Please review and comment. Offer as you might. All others please join us and chime in. I do plan to expand this post by adding points that address labor laws and the environment.
    IMMIGRATION ISSUE . . . PROBLEM AND PLAN ©

    May life bring you peace, prosperity, pleasant dreams becoming the best of your reality, your living of life . . . Betsy
    Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

    Posted by: Betsy L. Angert | Link to comment | Apr 03, 2006 at 01:29 PM



    Post a comment

    If you have a TypeKey or TypePad account, please Sign In