That Settles It

I need to send this to my first ex-wife:

Game theory and toilet seats, by Chris Dillow: With this being Pre-Budget day [in the UK], you're probably expecting serious economic analysis. So here's a paper: "The social norm of leaving the toilet seat down: a game theoretic analysis." The gist:

We show conclusively that the social norm of leaving the toilet seat down after use decreases welfare ... social norms are not always welfare-enhancing.

There's probably more proper economic analysis in this paper than we'll get from Brown today.

I don't care if it's been over twenty years, I win. However, Chris left something out. From the abstract of the paper:

We model the toilet seat problem as a 2 player non-cooperative game. We find that the social norm of leaving the toilet seat down is inefficient. However, to the dismay of “mankind”, we also find that the social norm of leaving the seat down after use is a trembling-hand perfect equilibrium. Hence, sadly, this norm is not likely to go away.

Here's a bit more from the introduction:

The issue of whether the toilet seat should be left up or down after use seemingly generates a lot of passion among the parties concerned, however, scientific inquiries into the matter are almost non-existent. Notable exceptions are Choi(2002) and Harter (2005). Choi (2002) argues that the rule of leaving the toilet seat down after use is inefficient in the sense that there is at least one other rule that outperforms this rule. The unit of analysis in Choi (2002) is the household and the efficient rule is defined as one that minimizes the total cost of toilet seat operations per household. Choi (2002) does not model the issue as a situation of conflict, hence ignores the game theoretic aspects of the problem. Harter (2005) models the situation as a cooperative game and proposes a contract that splits the costs of toilet seat operations evenly among the parties. Both papers agree that the social norm of leaving the toilet seat down is inefficient in the sense that it does not minimize the total cost of toilet seat operations per household. However, both papers fail to address an important concern: If a female finds the toilet seat in a wrong position then she will most probably yell at the male involved. This yelling inflicts a cost on the male. Based on this omission, women may argue that the analysis in these papers is suspect.

In this paper, we internalize the cost of yelling and model the conflict as a non-cooperative game between two species, males and females. We find that the social norm of leaving the toilet seat down is inefficient. However, to our dismay, we also find that the social norm of always leaving the toilet seat down after use is not only a Nash equilibrium in pure strategies but is also trembling-hand perfect. So, we can complain all we like, but this norm is not likely to go away...

Comments

[Ken Houghton]

First ex-wife? How many do you have? Or are you just preparing for the future, the way one may refer to the current spouse as "my future ex-wife/husband"?

[cm]

I'm afraid this issue can only be satisfactorily addressed by creating a free market in toilet seat positions.

[cm]

More precisely, seat-position permit trading.

[pgl]

The 1st person to pose this one to me was Claremont's Tom Borcheding. For Tom's sake - I hope his lovely wife has not divorced him (even as we always wondered why she put up with him).

[donna]

Guys, just sit down already.

Really.

[RP]

This came up once at a large family holiday gathering...I reminded most of the female members of the family that men can aim perfectly well with the seat down, and that it was a courtesy that we lifted the lid. It's only fair that they put the lid down in exchange,
unless they prefer we leave it down at all times.

It's never been argued in our family since then....

[RP]

I'll save you all the trouble...yes, men are pigs.

[Mark Thoma]

Two.

[spencer]

The discussion was resolved in my family with the point that the seat should be down for aesthetic reasons.

Besides, today is my 65th birthday and I am not going to change my old habit now.

[save_the_rustbelt]

Can't we find a technology solution? Can't globalization create synergies to solve the problem?

Just wondering.

[baileyman]

Most toilets have a cover. Everyone should close it. That's fair. Then if it's yellow, let it mellow.

[marcel]

Discover magazine (I think) and the syndicated column, "The Straight Dope" (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990416.html) have discussed the mist of water from the toilet that collects on bathroom surfaces. As a result, the rule in our household is that the lid, not just the seat, belongs down before flushing. I think Miss Manners also agreed that the lid should be left down. Before we came to this agreement, I made it clear that, though most would consider my feminist credentials only slightly if at all peccable, I believed that this was strictly a (proposed) social convention, and unlike driving on the right, there was little cost to anyone if it were not followed.

[Bruce Hall]

I agree with Marcel, except my wife keeps forgetting to lower the lid. She feels that it is inefficient to do so because she will have to raise it the next time and her labor cost per hour increases from this inefficiency.

Obviously, what is needed is to have a vacuum-based flushing system that eliminates the need for the lid to be lowered. This can be researched and engineered in the U.S. and then outsourced for production to China.

One simple idea solves both health and economic issues plaguing the world.

[sargon]

The utility of the person who cleans the bathroom is different from the utility of the person who doesn't clean the bathroom.

For the person who cleans the bathroom the optimum is everybody sits down, the seat never goes up.

Men all say, "I'm different," but they're not. It's a situation like driving where 80% believe they're in the top 20%.

[Donald A. Coffin]

I'm with Spencer (although somewhat younger)--having the lid down is more aesthetically pleasing. Therefore I gain utility when the lid is down. (But lifted for use.)

[Ethan]

Its bad feng shui to leave the toilet LID up -- let alone the seat. Particularly if your bathroom is right off your bedroom. With the lid up your love life can go right down the toilet. Same with the seat up, come to think of it.

[JamesG]

"vacuum-based flushing system that eliminates the need for the lid to be lowered"
Japanese are way ahead of you on that. You can buy it now.

[koen]

I´m wondering what Mr. Thoma´s second ex-wife´s attitude towards toilet seats was.

Anyway, I lived in a student house with four toilets once: two of them without a seat whatsoever, two of them in which the seat wouldn´t stay up. No problems there!

[koen]

On a related note, on the Freakonomics blog Stephen J. Dubner is wondering why there aren´t any urinals in houses.

[Mark Thoma]

koen

I had friends growing up - big family of farm boys - mom got tired of cleaning bathroom after them and had a urinal installed in their house...

[calmo]

Happy Birthday Spencer! That sound you hear in the background is a toilet seat flapping up and down...maybe not 65 times, but alot.
Many happy returns of the day to you.

[calmo]

There is a technical solution Rusty which I outlined in a previous post that was eaten by the (male) gods as likely too provocative...yes, I know...me, provocative! Well, those goddesses may be distracting them at the moment, so here it is again: Duct tape the seat down,install a pack of ultracapacitors behind the seat to a conductive area surrounding the seat, males who draw, aim, fire and splash are zapped good. Males learn to sit.
If more males had to do toilet cleaning this re-adjustment might have taken less 'shock and awe' measures.
Ultracapacitors: for enforcing a clean and tidy home. Could be the next Big Thing.

[Mark Thoma]

spencer:

Yes, happy birthday. It's my mom's birthday today too (she's 70, but don't tell).

She's been mad at the Japanese for ruining her birthday since she was seven years old.

[Isabel]

When I was redoing a bathroom some 4 years ago, I naturally collected a fair amount of catalogues of such things as toilets, bathtubs, etc. I learnt then that there are in fact urinals to be installed in houses, apparently more frequently in Germany because the brands that carried them seemed to be German (very expensive brands, by the way).

Incidentally, my husband seemed to have a deal with a previous wife or girlfriend in these terms: I will leave the toilet seat down for you if you will leave it up for me. It seems obvious, but nobody ever mentions this soluton.

[Isabel]

solution, sheeesh!

[piglet]

As always, those economists' analyses stay on the surface and don't understand the deeper implications. The reason why the toilet seat AND lid must be put down is that otherwise, as most everyone knows, good energy will constantly drain through the toilet. You should urgently consult your Feng Shui guide, Mark ;-)

[luci]

This whole argument of "up or down", when trying to minimize total labor, presupposes that guys would be perfectly fine leaving piss all over the toilet. They shouldn't be, so they must either do a quick clean-up after every visit, or sit down. Cleaning each time definitely increases the amount of labor involved, so they should sit. Unless they and their housemates don't mind being disgusting.

[anne]

"Incidentally, my husband seemed to have a deal with a previous wife or girlfriend...."

Huh???

[koen]

Luci:

"Unless they (...) don't mind being disgusting."

We´re guys, being disgusting is what we do!

And I think my mother should have installed an urinal as well. With four disgusting little boys in the house, she could have spared herself some trouble.

Come to think of it, you could install a urinal in a closet or something in the living room, so you wouldn´t have to miss anything of a football (soccer) game when nature calls.

[marcel]

Koen:

We´re guys, being disgusting is what we do!

...

Come to think of it, you could install a urinal in a closet or something in the living room, so you wouldn´t have to miss anything of a football (soccer) game when nature calls.

Would you actually have to hook it up to, like, the plumbing? Or could you just place it in closet or living room and use it as if it were actually hooked up. A Friedmanite (as-if) toilet, so to speak?

[cm]

Isabel: It works only when the respective parties strictly take turns.

Meanwhile in the real world, the only thing that will reliably work is for each party with a stake (need to use the toilet) to restore the seat position that will suit them, regardless of market incentives. Just as in all other areas of life -- you need it, you do it.

[Isabel]

What about: you know he/she will need it, you do what you know it suits him/her. As this thread proves, in the real world of cohabitation, a seemingly illogical attitude goes a long way in securing future cooperation and goodwill (I trust the excellent economists in this forum to give these parameters a fancy and precise name).

[Ken Houghton]

But if you're not taking turns, in a two-person, no pet household, you know when to leave the seat down (up). (In fact, if you're going frequently as a male, I suspect down is the proper location.)

Belated Happy Birthday to Spencer and Mark T's mother.

Feng Shui notwithstanding, anyone with pets knows to keep both down.

Ladies: what you're forgetting is that either (a) toilet seats are cold or (b) if you put those fluffy things on them, they are not balanced when up. (The likely result of the second is left as an exercise to the female reader, who would likely never sit on a padded cover again.)

On instinct, both down should be a Nash Equilibrium in an equally-gendered, equally-excretory household:

DOWN produces -1 for the female(s) and -1.5 for the male(s) (but is still a single action).

UP-1 produces 0 for the female and -0.5 for the male

UP-2 produces -1 for the female and -0.5 for the male.

So only DOWN does not give one side or the other the impression that the result is for the other's benefit.

[calmo]

Ken, former owner of cat and 'fluffy thing' on lid, my condolences to past cats...
Just to register myself as an outlier:
I'm not a 'fluffy thing on seat or lid' kind of guy and leave the lid (and maybe seat) up (not precariously) to allow the cats a drink.

Now, to register why I'm glad to be your outlier:

Ladies are NOT a) capable of forgetting that toilet seats are cold (Feel this warm ice cube on your butt? No) nor b) stumped by the puzzle of keeping the fluffy-lid up (Move left leg forward, press knee against lid, locate zipper...ready, aim, fire, keeping knee against lid damnit)
Hold it right there:On instinct, both down should be a Nash Equilibrium in an equally-gendered, equally-excretory household This could be my failing: no economic instincts. Just ever so whispy intuitions, a big handicap.
Your micro analysis suffers from this referential opacity: no context. The service of providing a convenient utility without regard to who cleans/services the utility reduces the behavior to an action of Up/Down that is too narrowly construed.
I've been upstaged in public washrooms by females using the urinals...I survived the ordeal (now referred to as Last Visit to the Public Washrooms).
So you can imagine if some of these no-ladies were using your toilet, there would be no-funny-business (Just Sit to Pee) esp if, for circumstances beyond your control, you were to share those house cleaning chores.

[koen]

Marcel:
Would you actually have to hook it up to, like, the plumbing? Or could you just place it in closet or living room and use it as if it were actually hooked up. A Friedmanite (as-if) toilet, so to speak?

I guess you could make it one of those chemical toilets, so there´d be no need to hook it up. And obviously the ladies could use it too!

[calmo]

I see...then carry this box around like a portable fish tank --masquerading as a purse?..all to avoid the squatting which I suppose leaves one vulnerable or is a submission posture...unlike those no-ladies who paid me a visit at the Public Washrooms (one leg karate style straight out above the urinal)...not too much submission there.

[dWj]

Another one for your first wife:They followed the women for an average of 6.4 years, during which time 3,423 developed breast cancers. When all forms of activity were combined, being active appeared to offer a protective effect only to post-menopausal women.

However when the results were examined in more detail it was found that women who did the most housework had significantly reduced risks while work- and recreation-based activity had less effect.