"The Furor in China is Everywhere"

An email I received today:

Dear Prof. Thoma..., I have been deeply disturbed and distressed about the recent news from China. Although NYT has some reports on it: 

• Reports of Forced Labor at Brick Kilns Unsettle China
• Fast-Growing China Says Little of Child Slavery’s Role
• China Tries to Contain Scandal Over Slave Labor With Arrests and Apology

For other western media coverage, see:

• Media Coverage of the Brick Kiln Case

But for the English version of an interview with the reporter who helped to make the case public, see:

• How The Reporter Found The Shanxi Brick Kiln Slaves

But the furor in China is everywhere. Ordinary people are deeply shocked and disillusioned at the government's inaction and indifference to basic human rights!!! I am so sad to see my own country come to this day, I cry every time I think of the poor kids and their parents, who have nowhere to seek justice. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Over the internet people are saying that such horrific abduction of people is everywhere. It is not a labor dispute. It is a reflection of a very sick society that would pursue wealth at all cost. I can't believe this is my country!

I am going to China soon and I will have chance to see more of people's reaction to it. The world can't stay silent on THIS! I'd like to hear your and your reader's opinion on it. My own impression of the central government is that they are not sincere in truly solving it. At least the governor of the ShanXi province has to be fired! The PM has to apologize to all the victims.

Comments

[Tom]

Not sure if that niave American realizes that most of these reports are being released by newspapers and TV that are the mouthpiece of the central government.

The Central government has been trying to address some of the local provinces for a couple of years now. They don't have control of some of these areas yet. Given that the government controlled Chinese media released all these reports (and newspapers have explicitly stated that government officials should be punished) the war between the local provinces and the cntral government has been declared.

The Central government is making it very clear to some of these local govenment officials and robber-barons that the next action the Central government will take is a bloodbath.

[a]

Thanks for the post!!!

The reporter in the interview started showing the footage he obtained through three visits to Shanxi province with hidden camera in the Henan province. Soon thousands of parents in that province alone are coming to ask about the information of their lost children after viewing the program! That is how for some new report the number of lost children is at least thousands. But so far, mysteriously, only a handful of children have been found in the government investigation.

Another media event triggered the case to be a national news is a letter on behalf of 400 fathers looking for their lost children was posted at Dahe and Tiaya, two Chinese websites. Within six days, the posts received 3000 responses and 580,000 hits, and was promptly shut down --- you can still read the cached website in Chinese here:
http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/Content/free/1/926643.shtml

An English translation of the letter is here (and there is a second one from the fathers claiming that with all the government fanfare their children are still missing, I iwll find th eEnglish translation and post it soon):
======================
China Digital Times' translation of Tianya forum post by children's fathers:

We are the fathers of the children who were abducted to toil at illegal brick kilns in Shanxi Province. Our children, who are very young and unsophisticated, were hoodwinked or forcibly dragged into cars by human traffickers at Zhengzhou Railway Station, bus stations, underneath pedestrian overpasses, or on the roads. They were sold for 500 yuan apiece to the owners of illegal brick kilns in Shanxi to work as slave laborers.

Since our children disappeared, we gave up everything, deserted our hometown and traversed almost the whole country to look for them. After great hardship and difficulties, we finally confirmed that they were sold to illegal brick kiln owners in Shanxi.

We were astonished when we finally caught a glimpse of our children, who were using both their hands and feet to work and whose hair was as long and disheveled as that of savages. Some of them have been isolated for seven years, some of them were severely beaten and are now disabled after they were caught escaping, and some had their backs ironed by the foremen using heated bricks (their backs couldn’t recover even several months after they were rescued and sent to hospitals).

We were too weak. And our children’s lives are constantly in danger. We had to ask recourse from the government. We traveled to the public security departments and the labor departments in the village, the county, and the district. What disheartened and disappointed us was that the public security department in the village not only disregarded our request, but even obstructed us by all means to take away our children. They stood by indifferently when the kiln owners threatened us. The county public security department, after getting orders from their superior to interfere, told us that since the children were kidnapped in Henan and the kiln owners were from Henan, we should come back and report to the Henan police. “We will full-heartedly cooperate if the Henan police take the case.” Leaving without a choice, we had to take another hard journey back to Henan.

However, the Henan police expressed nothing but incapacity to help. They explained that since our children were only coercively detained and illegally forced to work, and since no children died, the case was not strong enough to be registered. Besides, according to the law, the case took place in Shanxi, so it should be taken care of by Shanxi police.

The lives of our children should be taken care of immediately. Who can rescue them? With the governments in Henan and Shanxi passing the buck to each other, whom should we ask for help? This is extremely urgent, and concerns the life and death of our children. Who can help us?

[a]

It is not a central vs local government issue any more. Many CHinese people believe that the central government is turning a blind eye towards the long exiting problem in pursue of economic growth. The state media's report is to do damage control and to report the "positive" government actions.

Here is "A Notice from the Central Government to Censor News Related to Shanxi Brick Kilns Event"
at http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2007/06/a_notice_from_the_central_government_to_censor_news_rel.php

======================
Regarding the kidnapping of about 1,000 children in Shanxi province, the Chinese central government has announced a policy, not on how to punish the ruthless kiln owners and the perfunctory local officials and police, but on how to censor the related news and save the face of the party and the government. Here is the translation of a notice released by the CPC Central Office of External Communication, one of the party’s main propaganda arms.

All External Communication Offices, Central and Local Main News Websites:

Regarding the Shanxi “illegal brick kilns” event, all websites should reinforce positive propaganda, put more emphasis on the forceful measures that the central and local governments have already taken, and close the comment function in the related news reports. The management of the interactive communication tools, such as online forums, blogs, and instant messages, should also be strengthened. Harmful information that uses this event to attack the party and the government should be deleted as soon as possible. All local external communication offices should enhance their instruction, supervision and inspection, and concretely implement the related management measures.

The Internet Bureau, CPC Central Office of External Communication
June 15, 2007

UPDATE: Read also: How media “guidance” works in China by James Fallows.

[KThomas]

How sad.

God, what people will do for money.

[a]

I like this comment from
http://granitestudio.blogspot.com/2007/06/slavery.html

"I'm tired of China blaming corruption on "poverty" or "lack of development." Say it with me, people: Corruption in China is a systemic problem made worse because authorities are not responsible nor answerable to those they govern."

How TRUE! It is time for we Chinese people to wake up, to save our children!

[Shuli]

"I am going to China soon and I will have chance to see more of people's reaction to it. The world can't stay silent on THIS!"

The West must save the Chinese people!!!!

The Chinese people seem to be able to take care of themselves. I hope "the world" would allow them to have their own revolution without interference. As he stated, the Chinese people are in a "furor" and the government knows that it can't fight against the population. The Chinese people, the oldest living civilization, has a history of opposing foreign meddling and the ability to create their own revolutions.

The West either want a puppet regime or a Democracy. They want a Democracy so they can put money into candidates that will implement Western friendly policies much like the corporate and special interest groups do in the American system.

I hope for the sake of the Chinese, they return back to a modernized Confucius system similar to the Tang Dynasty.

[a]

Not that the west must save the Chinese people. But I think it is not bad to have an international spotlight on this events:

1) Chinese people have been so used to the brutality of the corrupted system that they really don't know what to do to help themselves!!! Plus all the censorship in politics and activism. Possibly I am under-estimating their ability. I hope so. But some international solidarity with the people of China is absolutely a good thing. All the people in the world with a conscience should unite to help each other. NO?

2) If you ask ordinary Chinese people, or read them on the internet, you get quite a different pictures from the official state report. Yes, the fury, the hopelessness. I agree totally (so do many of my relatives in China) that the governor should be fired and the PM should apologize --- the central government is not innocent. There are, on everyday, hundreds of people in Beijing "ShangFang" (pleading for justice) because their local government is so corrupted and they had tried all the way to the central government. The central government has its chance to listen and govern --- did they ever take it? Did they ever listen to the people? Only when it comes to the public in such full blow, they are "ASTONISHED"! They really should not. This is the country they govern. The ASTONISHMENT is either utter indifference to the people they govern, or utter incompetence. Either way, this is not acceptable.

I don't know if you are so proud that the Chinese people "has a history of opposing foreign meddling and the ability to create their own revolutions", why you are so against democracy? Why can't we create a democracy for ourselves?

And what does this modernized Tang dynasty look like? I have no clue, please educate me!

[Shuli]

If you're talking about helping the Chinese people through activism so that workers in China aren't paid and treated like slaves, I think that it's best to start that kind of activism against the corporations and industries in America that's creating these slave conditions.

Here's an example of how Wal-Mart buyers operate in the 3rd World:

Wal-Mart meets with various Chinese manufacturers and agrees to the lowest price for goods that they want to buy. If the Chinese manufacturer doesn't deliver the product on time then Wal-Mart finds another buyer to produce those goods. If the Chinese manufacturers got together and set a realistic price that they could quote Wal-Mart so they could pay their workers and a realistic date they could deliver the product so their workers don't have to work 16 hours/7 days a week, then Wal-Mart would then tell the manufacturers that they'll go to India or hell ... Vietnam is now cheaper. Who's creating this mess and who's calling the shots? Who making the most profits from all this slavery?

Could the 1st World countries get together and pass laws to enforce minimun standards for Chinese, Indian etc. laborers? What kind of example are these free and democratic nations setting? China's going through the same kind of crap that Americans had to put up with during the Industrial Revolution ... the global ecomonic system is still an exploitive system.

Granted, the brick work kiln was not a foreign manufacturer and there's a hell of a lot of basic human rights abuses going on in China but I think you severely underestimate the Chinese people ... there's a hell of a lot of protesting and organizing going on in China especially via the internet. I have faith that the Chinese will and know how to create change. There's a hell of a lot of nationalism going on amonst it's people, and I doubt that they want to be known as being the same weak and backwards nation that the West believes them to be.

As far as democracy is concerned for a developing country in this day in age ... the outlook doesn't look good. Rich nations would begin the process of colonizing .... err ... privatizing everything. From health care to social security programs, China will become even more dysfunctional than it is now. Fact is, you can't trust any of these countires anymore. These aren't the innocent days after WWII anymore.

Moreover, look at India. India has slavery and a institutionalized underclass yet it's a democracy.

I agree, the local and provincial government needs to change and has to have competant leadership. As well as the police and businesses ... I hope that the Chinese people continue to be outrage and force the central government to start appying the rule of law for the rest of China ... and invests in itself like paying teachers, police and local officials more.

The best path for China is follow what the Chinese ex-pats did in Signapore. I'm not saying that it's a long-term model but it should keep the barbarians at the gate.

[Mark]

I agree.

The Chinese government has to be structured like a corporation with the same tranparencies that corporations are obligated to adhere to.

You don't need a democracy for basic freedoms and human rights. They should be allowed to elect police officials and judges. They chould also demand freedom of the press to expose the corruption. They should also have representatives from every town to address the social issues to the government in a public forum.

I read an article a while back about voting in the villages and towns in China. The Chinese people were complaining that the central government was cracking down on candidates paying for votes. They protested and reasoned that they if they were putting someone in office, they should get paid for their vote.

[a]

In fact, I don't know how to help my people ---- I am searching and thinking these days. I want to believe you that the people are screaming and fighting, and are not accepting the status quo and waiting to die --- at least this time, they are not accepting their children to be so ruthlessly slaughtered.

I don't think one can blame Wal-mart on the problem of China. The system in China now, is the one only protects the powerful and the rich. This is what the brick kiln case reveals. This is what makes me so angry. And the reason that the system is this way is people has absolutely no power. If democracy is not the answer, what is? Singapore is a small city state that works. China is a vast country of 1.3 billion people. And even in Singapore there is election and the government is accounted for to the people. In China, there is none! This case shows, there is none!

"I hope that the Chinese people continue to be outrage and force the central government to start appying the rule of law for the rest of China"
I agree with the first half: yes, we should be outraged untill the system is fixed. But how can our anger change anything? I don't know.

[a]

"The Chinese people were complaining that the central government was cracking down on candidates paying for votes."

I'd like to see how much of it is just a small number of incidents, how much of it can be credited to "the Chinese people".

As for "corporation like transparency", you forget that your are talking about public companies that has shareholders... So they have to have transparency ---- and even that, was not so transparent in light of the corporation scandals in th e90's in the USA. And how can you make the Chinese government become so transparent now? I'd love to hear that! Yes, if without democracy, we can have freedom of press, basic human rights, citizen involvement in policy decision in an open forum, accountability of the all levels of government, legal system and law enforcement... Ahhh, I agree, we can do without democracy. Thanks for the brilliant suggestion.

[Emmanuel]

Labor may have not have the better end of the deal in China but this stuff is way overblown. Notice that even the government-controlled press is keen on these stories. Although this case may attract more press attention because it's sensational, it seems to me that there are far more pressing everyday concerns there for labor.

[kthomas]

emmanuel,

Overblown? Was that a joke?

What could be more pressing than capitalist scum stealing the children of citizens for slave-labor?

Please clarify.

[Emmanuel]

k--these incidences are indeed terrible, but those who are fond of concocting China scare stories tend to portray them as everyday occurrences.

It's Dickensian: of course these things (and much worse) happened during the Industrial Revolution but the scale is so much larger here with China's population of 1.3B that there are bound to be severe lapses.

[kthomas]

e-

True, but I really really don't like the way you play this off as China-bashing or as a matter of scale. You, my friend, sound like an apologist for Beijing.

The Chinese government is running on limited time, IMO. When you have children being stolen as slaves, right underneath the nose of Beijing (or right in it, as the case may be), you have a recipe for revolt.

Me, I will go out of my way to NOT buy anything from China.

This is just a sick, disgusting example of either government complicity or ineptness, or both. Anyone who made a dollar off of those bricks, and knew what was going on with the children, should be boiled alive, in cooking oil. In China, they put a bullet behind one's head, however.

Sorry, but this type of abuse of children gets me exceedingly upset.

Mao, no doubt, is spinning in his grave. Yeah, Mao the capitalist...yeah, that'll work!

[anne]

Of course, this is precisely what intimidation is about. Make sure to attack so meanly, in such intimidating terms, with such intimidating images, that every response becomes impossible.

[kthomas]

anne,

When I feel intimidated, I'll be certian to let you know. But what the heck are you talking about?

[anne]

The language just used, and images just created, were of course meant to intimate anyone who might care to respond other than in kind. I would guess the intimidation will prove successful.

[kthomas]

sorry, anne.

I stick by what I posted though: boiling oil...throw the perps in.

If that's intimidation, anne, then I'd say you are very sensitive person...I can respect that.

You economists...

[anne]

Thank you for being so considerate, I do understand.

[Shuli]

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!

Child slavery is going on in all the 3rd world countries ... China, India, etc.

Whether it's a authortatian or democratic government, it continues to exist. Hell, there are Indians and Pakistanis are basically sold off to slavery to rich Middle Eastern countries. I have yet to see a movement to boycott oil from expoitative regimes in oil rich countries. We in America get over 20% of our oil from Nigeria and the Nigerians are still living like their in the Stone Ages.

Don't just boycott "made in China," boycott any company, corporation or industry continues to exploit people without paying fair wages and demanding human rights.

Although it's too bad that the US invested much of its overall economic health in the finacial markets and making profits every quarter depends on getting the cheapest labor they can find in the world at all cost. I doubt that the Baby Boomers want to take a hit on their portfolio in order to relive their youth retiring in communes

[Robert]

If we did want to encourage the Chinese to do any thing related to human rights, the runup to the Olympics is the time to do it.

[a]

Robert says...
"Olympics is the time to do it".

Thanks! Yes, indeed. I just checked with my parents: how do they feel if people don't show up for the Olympics in Beijing because of the brick kilns? Offended? No, not at all. We have no face hosting such celebratory events with such kind of government running our country ruining our people and slaving our children. No joy in celebrating anything!

[a]

Shuli --- "Child slavery is going on in all the 3rd world countries ... China, India, etc."

Shuli, if you really love CHina and Chinese people (I guess you do otherwise you won't comment here), you would say the opposite: let's boycut "made in China" because of it. Let the capitalists in China know that people don't just buy cheap products, if the products are made by slaved children.

Not because it is going on in 3rd world country so let's accept it and go about shopping as usual.

BTW, your own word: child slavery, not just child labour!!!

[a]

KThomas,

thank you so much for being so compassionate! I understand not buying "made in China" is no trivial effort these days! So, many thanks!!!

"Anyone who made a dollar off of those bricks, and knew what was going on with the children, should be boiled alive, in cooking oil." --- this is precisely what thousands of Chinese are saying on the internet. Give the 400 fathers each one a machine gun!!!! Let's revolt!

[a]

e -"k--these incidences are indeed terrible, but those who are fond of concocting China scare stories tend to portray them as everyday occurrences."

They are occurring everyday at train stations and bus stations, that is how thousands of children are missing. Thousands of illegal brick kilns are profiting from the helpless kids. HUndreds of parents are begging all level of governments for help, for months! No one responded, and that is how the news got out: on the internet!

This is not a China Scare Stories concocted by small group of people. On every TV channel, they are showing the parents (most of them from poor rural countryside with no means) on the roads; at every dinner table in China people are talking about it and outraged. With all due respect, this is the real ugly China that we are seeing, the one that has been ignored and shoveled under the glorious picture of economic growth. The gangsters are running our government. Unfortunately the western media in by and large silent on it.

please see this article on the role of foreign press:
http://www.beijingnewspeak.com/2007/06/24/foreign-medias-limited-role-in-slavery-scandal/

[a]

Chinese version of the second letter in its entirety:
http://www.xys.org/forum/db/2/69/170.html

title "no trace of our sons, 400 fathers once again pleading for help: "Who can save our Children?"

I have not found the English translation, but here is a French version:

=========================
2ème lettre des 400 pères des enfants disparus

Nous sommes les malheureux pères, nos enfants sont kidnappés et sont forcés de travailler aux briqueteries clandestines. Le 5 juin, nous avions publié un post titré "Qui vont sauver nos enfants - le cris d'appel de 400 pères". Nous éspérions transférer ce message jusqu'au pouvoire central par le biais de l'internet, pour attirer leur attention.

Cette lettre a été republiée par plusieurs sites internet, nous avons eu des soutiens moraux de la part des personnes de bon coeur de tous les milieux. Les principaux médias ont aussi reporté, et dévoilé cette affaire. Ainsi, le centre du parti y a attaché beaucoup de l'importance. Le secretaire général du parti central Président Hu Jingtao, et premier ministre Wen Jiabao, ont aussi apostillé des importantes instructions sur les dossiers. Le vice président du Syndicat général national, M. Zhang mingqi a dirigé une équipe de travail pour superviser le travail du sauvetage. La province de Shanxi a enfin éclairci leur attitude, chaque hiérarchie gouvernementale ont pris la décision de prohiber les briqueteries clandestines, et de sauver les travailleurs piégés. La police de la province de Henan ont concu un plan de sauvetage trans-provincial en même temps que l'arrestation des trafiquants d'être humain. Grâce aux instructions apositillées des dirigeants, et à la surveillance du public, le sauvetage s'est bien déroulé et a progressé pendant 2 semaines: 370 travailleurs sont sauvés, l'inspecteur qui participait à la vente d'enfant a été puni sévèrement en excluant de son poste et baissé le salaire de 2 niveaux. Le secretaire du parti du village Caosheng, dont son fils tenait une briqueterie, a été aussi relevé de la fonction et exclu du parti communiste. Cet affaire est conclu en plein succès.

Nos serviteurs publiques proclamaient que le travail du sauvetage se contiue, et ne laisse tomber aucun travailleur piégé. Malgré tous, je ne peux pas me soulagé. Quand je vois des discussions vagues dans certains médias, je me sens encore plus triste et désespéré. Dans ce pays "harmonique", je ne sens pas le respect de la vie et le droit de l'homme.

Le 11 juin, quand tous les médias explosent sur ce sujet, nous, 8 parents des enfant disparus cherchaient encore dans la ville de Yuncheng. Des patron des briqueteries nous ont menacé: "ne rentre pas chez nous, si non je vous tue." Nous nous sommes adressés à la police locale. Un policier (immatriculé 092703) nous a accompagné pour poursuivre la recherche. Mais par hasard, on a rencontré Yue Xishan, le propriétaire d'une briqueterie sur la route, il conduisait une voiture immatriculée JINOM1061. Il a reproché le policier:"Pourquoi tu laisse ces gens-là dans ta voiture? Déscends les tout de suite." Sous la menace de Yue, le policier nous a expulsés de la voiture. Le matin du 12 juin, nous avons sauvé difficilement 23 enfants par nous-même, quand nous les avons conduit à la police pour avoir le permis de les remmener avec nous, la police nous a refusé à tout prix. Ils ne veulaient même pas nous donner les coordonnées des autres parents. Une dame parmi nous a même reçu un coup de pousse de la part d'un "policier populaire". Ils nous ont juste donné un engagement oral - "nous allons les envoyer chez eux." Mais, nous ne savons pas où est-ce qui'il vont les envoyer. Pendant 2 mois de recherche, nous avons plein de preuves, nous avons vu des milliers de briqueteries, dans chaque briqueterie, les plus part des travailleurs sont des adolescents. Seulement dans la ville de Yuncheng, il y a 1000 briqueteries. Et alors à Shanxi Province? Combien enfants ont ils exploité? On peut faire un calcul. Ils nous ont accusé de répandre des faux bruits pour tromper le public. Mais, les éléments filmés par les chaines de télévision et les blessures sur le corps des enfants, c'est les preuves de fer. Je veux demander, qu'est-ce qu'il est devenu, cet enfant esclave de 8 ans qui était dans le reportage de télévision, et celui qui pleurait devant le caméra, qui voulait partir avec nous, mais stoppé par la police locale en disant que "il n'est pas votre enfant, il ne peut pas partir"? Où sont ils maintenant? La province de Shanxi peut-elle nous donner une explication?

Et puis nos enfants, beaucoup d'entre eux sont des "collègues" des enfants sauvés. Le 4 juin, un enfant Yuan, sous la suggestion d'un chef d'usine, il a téléphoné à son père pour envoyer 35000 yuans de rançon. Ce coup de téléphone est bien une preuve. Avec le moyen que la police posséde, ils auraient pu l'identifier et localiser. Il y a encore Kang, Chai, Yang, ces 3 enfants sont encore tous à Shanxi, mais pourquoi l'action de sauvetage va bientôt terminer, mais on les a pas encore trouvé? Quand est-ce que nous pouvons revoir nos enfants?

Des patrons de briqueteries ont brulé tous les traces d'esclavage avant l'arrivée de l'inspection centrale. Nous nous inquietons pour le sort de ces milliers d'enfants, ils pourraient être les témoins de ces actes sanglants. Mais est-ce qu'ils sont assassinés?

Nous sommes que des humbles gens, nous n'osons pas profaner notre pays et notre parti. A tel point que quand il y a des médias étrangers qui voulaient nous interviewer, nous les avons refusés, même si nous avons besion de parler. Nous ne voulions pas profaner notre pays. Sans enfant, nos familles sont brisées. Où est la lois? Les autorités, quand vous cachez tous ces crimes, c'est pour la stabilité de la société ou pour créer des catastrophes? Vous êtes insensible à ces yeux des enfants? Comment allez vous faire face avec ces âmes innocentes? Comment vous allez repondre à votre coeur?

La découverte d'esclavage à Hongtong, ce n'est qu'une partie de la vérité. Il y a encore 1000 vies qui sont menacées. Nous nous agenouillions devant notre gouvernement, Sauvez nos enfants!!!

[a]

sorry, the website for the French translation is:

http://quyuan2.canalblog.com/archives/2007/06/21/5381750.html

[Shuli]

Asay:

"let's boycut "made in China" because of it. Let the capitalists in China know that people don't just buy cheap products, if the products are made by slaved children."

As I stated over and over again, brick kilns isn't the only industry that has slavery.

You agree with me that boycotting anything "made in China" (or any other 3rd world nation for that matter)... but you'll get nowhere putting pressure on China.

THE PRESSURE HAS TO BE PUT ON THE CORPORATIONS AND INDUSTRIES OF 1ST WORLD NATIONS.

It's the consuming nations that call the shot in trade with developing nations ... not the poor. They are creating this environment by NOT having labor standards or human rights standards ... the consuming nations are the ones with power. And until the people in America put pressure on their own government to pass laws and make sure that it's enforced that will create change.

Passing the buck to the governments of the developing world as American companies continue to pit the workers of 3rd world nations who are so desparate to find work that they wind up accepting any job offer.

Yeah, China is the wild, wild west ... you also have to realize that Brazil and India go through the same corruption and poverty. At some point, you have to start question this economic system and demand the change through your own country. None of these countries truly have the control to change the system (unless they reject what the 1st world offers them) ... but the US government does.

Unfortunately, the US government isn't creating economic policies to bring social justice to 3rd world people. The government only wants to exploit them for more and more profits of their corporations. Don't for a second think that the policies that the they're offering the Chinese people is for human right and freedom ... they're licking their chops to get access to the capital markets and the savings of the Chinese people. And if they do, Americans can watch in amusement as the Chinese throw their money at whatever "get rich quick" scheme that their finacial wizards throw at them. And when the "irrantional exuberance" bubbles finally explodes, the Chinese will have nothing ... not even the countries assets which are now in foreign hands. China will be added to the long list of developing countries that just couldn't quite make it.

So yes ... let's have 900 million poorly educated people vote for a Chinese president, provincial and local officials that can offer more them more prosperity in a exploitative global economic system that works against them. Everyone knows that it's impossible to have corruption at this level in a democracy ... these kinds of things never happened in America during the Industrial Revolution. And they don't happen in democratic Brazil or India. And certainly, foreign companies would never try to bride these officials to open up the Chinese markets for more exploitation.

[a]

So, Shuli, you are saying that the America has to save China now????
And the 900 million poorly educated people, of course, in your opinion can't govern themselves. The 18th century French king and his aristocrats believed so of their subjects, and they --- got their heads chopped off.

Sorry Anne, hope it is not intimidating anyone here.

[Lafayette]

a: Dans ce pays "harmonique", je ne sens pas le respect de la vie et le droit de l'homme.

C’est surprenant, ce que vous dites ? Pas vraiment. Qu’attendez-vous d’un pays qui vient de sortir, il y a quinze ans, de la pénombre d’un règne autocratique et en main de fer.

En Chine, on a changé de système politique ? On a changé la façon de sélectionner les dirigeants du pays ? On a instauré le plébiscite populaire pour élire un legislature autonome et indépendant ?

Bien sûr que non. Tout ce qu’on a changé c'est un politique économique par lequel il a été décidé de signer les accords du GATT que permettaient les produits chinois, à coup bas, d’accéder au marché des pays développé.

La politique d’intérieur du pays n’a point changé. D’ailleurs, pire, avec leur succès économique, les dirigeants commencent de nouveau à rever que la Chine reprenne sa place de prédominance qu’elle a toujours eu dans l’Orient pendant sa très longue période impériale.

Entre les Empereurs chinois d’antan et les ploutocrates soi-disant « communiste » de nos jours qui gèrent le pays, qu’elle est la différence ? Expliquez-nous, car c’est tellement difficile de le discerner … s’il existe même.

De notre point-de-vue de pays développés, je peux vous suggérer une TRES GRANDE différence. Nous avons opté pour la démocratie pour déterminer notre destin. Tandis que, pour eux, le destin de la Chine est toujours décidé tout en haut de la pyramide par une gérontocratie.

Même la notion de démocratie leur est étrange. Le peuple chinois a tellement l’habitude, depuis cinq millénaires, que leur destin soit décidé pour eux. Comment changer cela?

[Lafayette]

Shuli: They are creating this environment by NOT having labor standards or human rights standards ... the consuming nations are the ones with power. And until the people in America put pressure on their own government to pass laws and make sure that it's enforced that will create change.

What you say may be right. But, you forget that China is a sovereign nation.

There is little anyone can do about changing China ... except perhaps to stop buying their goods. Pass what laws? That is pathetic dribble.

America cannot pass laws that prohibit the import of Chinese goods, without being the object of exactly the same laws in rebuttal. Is that what you think we need, an international trade war? America has already declined in international respect as a result of its unilateral action in Iraq. You want more of the same for China?

So, here's your choice: Either we stop buying Chinese merchandise on the store shelves voluntarily or we shut up about the awful disrespect for human life in China.

It's that simple, because there is no other viable alternative except the one that the west as already chosen - that of "wait and see". We can only hope that China will find its own way to a democracy that will respect individual rights.

If there is another reasonable alternative, do explain how it might exist. If you can.

says...

Lafayette:

"What you say may be right. But, you forget that China is a sovereign nation.

There is little anyone can do about changing China ... except perhaps to stop buying their goods. Pass what laws? That is pathetic dribble."

How's this pathetic dibble?

If the weathy nations of the world agree to set standards in which their manufacturers who outsource labor into 3rd world market pay livable wages. This isn't just happening in China ... it's happening in all these 3rd world nations that want foreign investment.

The lessons Americans learned with the labor abuses during the Industrial Revolution shold be a guide in dealing with any developing country.

Trade war?

What trade war? If China doesn't like it then American companies will have to find a country to outsource its labor.

That's unilaterlal action?

Yes, China, India, Brazil, Russia etc are sovereign nations but it's our corporations that's bring the jobs there. 68% of China's exports are foreign owned. Certainly the US, Europe, Japan etc can get together and pass trade laws against their own companies and corporations.

I have repeatedly argued here that against the idea of foreign activist in the States to head to China so they can "teach" the Chinese how to have a revolution. The Chinese people are the ones that should have their own revolution (in which they are in fact doing as they have done in the past) so I'm not exactly sure what you last point is.

[Shuli]

Lafayette:

"What you say may be right. But, you forget that China is a sovereign nation.

There is little anyone can do about changing China ... except perhaps to stop buying their goods. Pass what laws? That is pathetic dribble."

How's this pathetic dibble?

If the weathy nations of the world agree to set standards in which their manufacturers who outsource labor into 3rd world market pay livable wages. This isn't just happening in China ... it's happening in all these 3rd world nations that want foreign investment.

The lessons Americans learned with the labor abuses during the Industrial Revolution shold be a guide in dealing with any developing country.

Trade war?

What trade war? If China doesn't like it then American companies will have to find a country to outsource its labor.

That's unilaterlal action?

Yes, China, India, Brazil, Russia etc are sovereign nations but it's our corporations that's bring the jobs there. 68% of China's exports are foreign owned. Certainly the US, Europe, Japan etc can get together and pass trade laws against their own companies and corporations.

I have repeatedly argued here that against the idea of foreign activist in the States to head to China so they can "teach" the Chinese how to have a revolution. The Chinese people are the ones that should have their own revolution (in which they are in fact doing as they have done in the past) so I'm not exactly sure what you last point is.

[a]

If you don't mind, I'll switch back to english (as Google translation is not always helpful for nuance, and I'm not sure the majority of this blog readers do read enough french to enjoy the conversation)

First a non translatable joke:
> que permettaient les produits chinois, à coup bas, d’accéder au
> marché des pays développé.
Nice freudian slip!! you meant "a cout bas" right ?

For the non french speaking audience:
un coup bas: a low hit, under the belt, and figuratively, an unfair behavior
un cout bas: a low cost

For the record, the sentence you're quoting is from the 400 fathers'second letter (not that I disagree with it though)

So Lafayette says...
>>Dans ce pays "harmonique", je ne sens pas le respect de la vie et le droit de l'homme.
[In this harmonious country, we don't feel any respect for life and human rights.]

>C’est surprenant, ce que vous dites ? Pas vraiment. Qu’attendez-vous d’un pays qui vient de sortir, il y a quinze ans, de la pénombre d’un règne autocratique et en main de fer.
[Is it suprising, what you're saying ? Not really.
What to expect from a country that just got out, 15 years ago, from the darkness of an autocratic reign with a deadly grip]

>En Chine, on a changé de système politique ? On a changé la façon de sélectionner les dirigeants du pays ? On a instauré le plébiscite populaire pour élire un legislature autonome et indépendant ?
[In China, was the political system changed ? was the way to select the country leaders ? Was popular plebiscite put in place to elect an autonomous and independent legislative body ?]

>Bien sûr que non. Tout ce qu’on a changé c'est un politique économique par lequel il a été décidé de signer les accords du GATT que permettaient les produits chinois, à coup bas, d’accéder au marché des pays développé.
[Of course not. All that was changed is an economic policy, allowing the country to sign the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which gave Chinese products, with their low cost, an access to the market of developed countries.]

>La politique d’intérieur du pays n’a point changé. D’ailleurs, pire, avec leur succès économique, les dirigeants commencent de nouveau à rever que la Chine reprenne sa place de prédominance qu’elle a toujours eu dans l’Orient pendant sa très longue période impériale.
[Internal policies were not changed. Even worse, thanks to their economic success, Chinese leaders start to dream again to have China regaining the dominant status in Orient that was hers during its very long imperial era]

>Entre les Empereurs chinois d’antan et les ploutocrates soi-disant « communiste » de nos jours qui gèrent le pays, qu’elle est la différence ? Expliquez-nous, car c’est tellement difficile de le discerner … s’il existe même.
[Between the Chinese Emperors from before and the so-called "communist" plutocrats from today, what's the difference ? Explain it to us, because it's hard to find it... if there is one.]

>De notre point-de-vue de pays développés, je peux vous suggérer une TRES GRANDE différence. Nous avons opté pour la démocratie pour déterminer notre destin. Tandis que, pour eux, le destin de la Chine est toujours décidé tout en haut de la pyramide par une gérontocratie.
[From our side of developped countries, I can suggest a HUGE difference. We chose democracy to be able to chose our destiny. But for them, Chinese fate has always and still is decided from the top of the pyramid by a gerontocracy]

>Même la notion de démocratie leur est étrange. Le peuple chinois a tellement l’habitude, depuis cinq millénaires, que leur destin soit décidé pour eux. Comment changer cela?
[Even the concept of democracy is foreign to them. The Chinese people is so used to have its fate decided for them, for about 5 millenium. How to change this ?]

[a]

Lafayette,

In one comment, you said "Even the concept of democracy is foreign to them. The Chinese people is so used to have its fate decided for them, for about 5 millenium. How to change this ?" (my translation) and the next, you said "We can only hope that China will find its own way to a democracy that will respect individual rights.".

I can only say that of the last 5 thousand years of civilization, the "we developed countries" only enjoyed democracy in the last 2 hundred years. So I am not so worried that we Chinese are too used to be ruled and can't learn democracy. Before the French revolution and the American revolution, no one knew how to get there...

[Anonymous]

I encourage everyone of the "Boycott China, shutdown the sweatshops" mentality to read Nicholas Kristof's
"Two Cheers for Sweatshops." http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000924mag-sweatshops.html

The concept here is the counterpart to "opportunity cost." If you boycott China to force someone's hand, do you know that things won't get worse instead of better?

The sad fact is that most of the developed nations of the world reached it through a path which proceeded through a period of labor explotation and social unrest. Dickensian it may be, but at least it's tried-and-true. Exploitation for a hundred years on the path to capitalist nirvana may be better than perpetual poverty as is being experienced by the Africans. If you wrinkle your brow in disgust and turn away, it may very well be counterproductive.

Selling votes in village elections? How awful. But wasn't that the state of American democracy circa 1880? Isn't that progress over no democracy at all?

Is this a rationalization/justification? Perhaps. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that you can't take positive steps to improve conditions. Positive steps, not backwards steps.

[Shuli]

a say:

"So, Shuli, you are saying that the America has to save China now????"

How's creating Fair Trade laws going to save China? How's that going to change their political system?

BTW ... there will never be fair trade laws nor will there ever be any change by weathy nations to create livable wage standards. Like I said since almost everyone in America has a stake in the finacial market, the profits a company makes is the only thing that counts. The cheaper the labor, the better.

US politicians can rant and rave about the poor labor practices in China and demand that the Chinese government enforce China's own laws but the weathy nations will never make any move to enforce their own companies and corporations to change their policies. So the exploitation continues ... and will always continue. Should the US save the Chinese so they can be "free?" Based on the history of America's Neoliberal economic policies, I don't think you would want any meddling by the US of China's political system. But the best one could hope for is the US and other nations to change their own policies ... but like I said, it will never happen.

It's like France complaining about China and its support of Sudan as the French oil company Total accepted Sudan's offer for drilling rights 2 weeks ago.

[a]

Dickensian --- what a convenient word. I am speechless.

All Chinese are saying no. It is not. It is a crime that the government upholds injustice, not justice. It is a crime when 400 fathers can't save their children and after they pleaded help and get national attention, they still can't. All they got is empty promises. The children are still missing and the party is already "celebrating" the success of rescue effort. Sounds like a Hollywood movie.

Dickensian : wow, he must be proud how he name is being used in his grave.