Illegal Immigrants Sent to Prison

The administration takes immigration enforcement to a new level:

270 Illegal Immigrants Sent to Prison in Federal Push, by Julia Preston, NY Times: In temporary courtrooms at a fairgrounds here, 270 illegal immigrants were sentenced this week to five months in prison for working at a meatpacking plant with false documents.

The prosecutions, which ended Friday, signal a sharp escalation in the Bush administration’s crackdown on illegal workers, with prosecutors bringing tough federal criminal charges against most of the immigrants arrested... Until now, unauthorized workers have generally been detained by immigration officials for civil violations and rapidly deported. ...

The unusually swift proceedings, in which 297 immigrants pleaded guilty and were sentenced in four days, were criticized by criminal defense lawyers, who warned of violations of due process. ...

The illegal immigrants, most from Guatemala, filed into the courtrooms in groups of 10, their hands and feet shackled. One by one, they entered guilty pleas through a Spanish interpreter... Moments later, they moved to another courtroom for sentencing. ... Most immigrants agreed to immediate deportation after they serve five months in prison.

The hearings took place on the grounds of the National Cattle Congress in Waterloo, in mobile trailers and in a dance hall modified with black curtains, beginning at 8 a.m. and continuing several nights until 10. On Wednesday alone, 94 immigrants pleaded guilty and were sentenced...

The large number of criminal cases was remarkable because immigration violations generally fall under civil statutes. Until now, relatively few immigrants caught in raids have been charged with federal crimes like identity theft or document fraud.

“To my knowledge, the magnitude of these indictments is completely unprecedented,” said Juliet Stumpf, an immigration law professor... “It’s the reliance on criminal process here as part of an immigration enforcement action that takes this out of the ordinary, a startling intensification of the criminalization of immigration law.” ...

Kathleen Campbell Walker, president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, said that intricate issues could arise in some cases, for example where immigrants had children and spouses who were legal residents or United States citizens. Those issues “could not be even cursorily addressed in the time frame being forced upon these individuals and their overburdened counsel.”

Linda R. Reade, the chief judge who approved the emergency court setup, said she was confident there had been no rush to justice. In an interview, Judge Reade said prosecutors had organized the immigrants’ detention to make it easy for their lawyers to meet with them. The prosecutors, she said, “have tried to be fair in their charging.”

The immigration lawyers, Judge Reade said, “do not understand the federal criminal process as it relates to immigration charges.”

That last part confuses me. How was the process fair if immigration lawyers don't understand it? The Judge seems to be arguing that the process was fair because prosecutors adjusted their charges to compensate for the fact that immigration lawyers don't understand federal procedures. If so, I don't get that argument.

But the main question is, as George Borjas notes, why did the administration choose to pursue this now? They haven't hesitated to politicize the Justice Department to suit their needs, so does this help Bush's reputation or McCain's chances of winning the election?

Update: I probably should have included this part - these issues have come up in comments:

No charges have been brought against managers or owners at Agriprocessors, but there were indications that prosecutors were also preparing a case against the company. In pleading guilty, immigrants had to agree to cooperate with any investigation.

Chaim Abrahams, a representative of Agriprocessors, said in a statement that he could not comment about specific accusations but that the company was cooperating with the government.

Aaron Rubashkin, the owner of Agriprocessors, announced Friday that he had begun a search to replace his son Sholom as the chief executive of the company. Agriprocessors is the country’s largest producer of kosher meat, sold under brands like Aaron’s Best. ... Normally it employs about 800 workers, and in recent years the majority of them have come from rural Guatemala.

Since 2004, the plant has faced repeated sanctions for environmental and worker safety violations. It was the focus of a 2006 exposé in The Jewish Daily Forward and a commission of inquiry that year by Conservative Jewish leaders.

Comments

[Arne (not anne)]

I want to know how many employers were prodecuted.

[Mark Thoma]

Maybe I should have left this in:No charges have been brought against managers or owners at Agriprocessors, but there were indications that prosecutors were also preparing a case against the company. In pleading guilty, immigrants had to agree to cooperate with any investigation.

Chaim Abrahams, a representative of Agriprocessors, said in a statement that he could not comment about specific accusations but that the company was cooperating with the government.

Aaron Rubashkin, the owner of Agriprocessors, announced Friday that he had begun a search to replace his son Sholom as the chief executive of the company. Agriprocessors is the country’s largest producer of kosher meat, sold under brands like Aaron’s Best. The plant is in Postville, a farmland town about 70 miles northeast of Waterloo. Normally it employs about 800 workers, and in recent years the majority of them have come from rural Guatemala.

Since 2004, the plant has faced repeated sanctions for environmental and worker safety violations. It was the focus of a 2006 exposé in The Jewish Daily Forward and a commission of inquiry that year by Conservative Jewish leaders.

[Bruce Wilder]

Oddly, I find I don't have mixed feelings about this. American immigration laws, as written, are quite liberal and sensible on the whole. The problem has always been the failure to enforce them, with sanctions against employers, who knowingly violate the laws and against immigrants, who participate in fraud. The failure to enforce the immigration laws contributes to a working environment, beyond law enforcement, where people are exploited abused.

There are other aspects of American immigration, which I have read about, that do aggravate or shock me. The idea of building a wall along the Mexican border is so stupid, it makes me want to spit in Lou Dobbs' face. There are many stories of arbitrary treatment of tourists and legal residents, who fall into a system, with few legal protections -- stories of arbitrary detention without process, medical neglect and the like -- truly horrible stuff.

But, this is a story of the law being enforced, expeditiously. Maybe, there's some arbitrary expedience at work here -- that's hinted at, and this is the Bush Administration, but it is not clear in the story what that might be.

To me, non-enforcement of the immigration laws simply cannot be regarded as a good and desirable policy option. Whether it is proposed from the Right as a protection for low-wage employers, or from the Left, as an indulgence for ethnic minorities, lawlessness remains, in my view, social and political poison.

[donna]

This "immigration control theatre" is just as bad as "security theatre", and probably happening for similar reasons. It doesn't do any good at all, and doesn't fix the problems.

[anne]

"Since 2004, the plant has faced repeated sanctions for environmental and worker safety violations. It was the focus of a 2006 exposé in The Jewish Daily Forward and a commission of inquiry that year by Conservative Jewish leaders."

Having just been to a Bat Mitzvah, I asked and was told by Rabbi K that the community has been aware of the plant conditions and does not accept meat from the plant as acceptable because of the conditions.

[anne]

Mark Thoma:

"How was the process fair if immigration lawyers don't understand it? The Judge seems to be arguing that the process was fair because prosecutors adjusted their charges to compensate for the fact that immigration lawyers don't understand federal procedures."

I must ask. I am concerned about both the how puzzling this is and the seeming need for such harshness precisely at a time of destructive reaction against immigration in South Africa.

[Nathan Pancratz]

God, you can't make this stuff up. So let's review: we're now spending our tax money to pay for prisons, guards, courthouses, judges, food and care while they're locked-up, etc. to lock-up people that previously were working members of the community that happened to be born elsewhere. Last I knew, there weren't numerous Americans clamoring to work at meatpacking plants.

It's safe to say those people are "defenseless" in the legal sense of the word, so they were easy targets. Let's see the government try that in New York, arresting the Canadian white collars working in offices here "illegally". Disgusting.

And I'm sure this has just greatly helped America's image as it's reported in Guatemala...

[Barkley Rosser]

As Bruce W. notes, there have been some real horrors going on with the system. WaPo over a week ago had a series on how ICE is rounding up legal immigrants who committed crimes in the past to deport, but then stashing them in jails in deserts without medical care or access to their families. Most people do not know this garbage is happening, and some who do think it is great, but I think it is a complete degradation of this country.

Stupid and evil laws do not need to be enforced.

[Bruce Wilder]

donna: "This 'immigration control theatre' is just as bad as "security theatre"

Could you expand on this?

I understand it is "theatre". A lot of law enforcement employs theatre. I used to work for a retail store that would hire actors to be noisily arrested as shoplifters. It was pure theatre, but it worked well enough to show up in the loss statistics.

Is it a matter of scale or timing? Is it a lack of consideration for the implications of more than a decade of non-enforcement, which has, reportedly, created an undocumented immigrant population of 12 million, many of whom have legal resident or citizen family and long-term committments. Too little, too late creates a lot of problems, which are not addressed by expeditious prosecution of specific offenses, in a few, select cases. Cause, though I see big problems, I don't see the parallels with "security theatre".

[Bruce Wilder]

NP: "arresting the Canadian white collars working in offices"

Under NAFTA rules, Canadians are pretty much free to work anywhere in the U.S., in most occupations; the barriers are very low, so I don't know why a Canadian would be working "illegally" in a white collar occupation. It would be completely unnecessary.

[NoMoreBlatherDotCom]

I find it shocking that illegal aliens faced a similar fate to those citizens who engage in similar activity, when everyone knows that they should have simply been released so they can could back and help other (or the same) crooked employers. Equally shocking is that those illegal aliens will tell their networks back home and that will result in fewer trying to come here.

As for Nathan Pancratz' concerns, one might wonder why the plant was located in a very small town with few local workers in the first place. And, one might look into a similar raid in GA a while back, where the plant had to raise wages - horrors! - and U.S. citizens were lined up to take the jobs.

[methinks]

If I have learned anything in my life, it's that society works exactly the way it's supposed to. This influx of undocumented workers, living in the shadows and unable to organize or even complain, is no accident. They are a reserve supply of labor whose function is to keep wages and benefits depressed.
And the people who have benefitted most from this cheap labor now want to skin the oz twice. They want to lay the blame for 30 years of trickle-down, supply-side gibberish on to the backs of the most exploited, down-pressed, and powerless people in society.
Neither congress, ICE, Homeland Security (sic), or the Minutemen will solve this "problem." They are not supposed to.

[Denis Drew]

This is one of the sickest episodes I have ever heard of. To think that the richest nation in the world would take poor illegal workers (AS IN NOWHERE AS LUCKY AS IN WHERE FATE PLUNKED THEM DOWN AS WE ARE) who are desperate enough for sustenance to leave behind loved ones and friends to work as galley slaves in our food chain and lock them away in federal prison is something right out of nineteenth century England and Dickens -- the damned indignity.

Once American labor gets its mojo back -- I am pushing sector-wide labor agreements together with universal certification and re-certification elections at every workplace every four years as complementary* -- I would be willing to consider opening our Mexican border the same way our Canadian border is open. Wont be able to pay Mexican workers less than Americans if movement back and forth is free (good for both). Can't have a giant chunk of the northern hemisphere living poor forever right next to the "stinking rich" chunk -- time for that to end.

PS. For those terrified of Mexican immigration: there are only 100 million Mexicans left in Mexico -- polls show fewer than half want to move here (46% in a Pew poll) -- if 33% make it that would only add 11% to our ever expanding population -- they are mostly all honest and hard working -- what's the problem?

*http://ontodayspage.blogspot.com/2008/05/newt-grinch-rich
-gives-me-double.html

[save_the_rustbelt]

I've been researching some of these issues for two years, and have found:

1) use of fraudulent documents by illegals is almost never prosecuted, by either the feds or the states
2) uses of phony or stolen SSNs are rarely prosecuted (the stolen SSNs are a HUGE problem for the innocent victims)
3) failure to file income tax returns has been completely ignored (some illegals have had tax withheld, many are strictly underground economy, most don't file).
4) tax evasion by the companies has been mostly ignored (without getting too technical, since the feds cannot reconcile W-2s to payroll tax returns, employers often withhold taxes and keep the money).
5) From correspondence with SSA I know that SSA has pinpointed employers who regularly file documents with large numbers of stolen or phony SSNs, so DOJ should be able to trace more of these cases.

All of these #1-#5 are prosecuted regularly when US citizens are involved, illegals have de facto amnesty for the most part.

As far as this raid, it is mostly a public relations and political move, there are 8 - 12 million illegals working.

says...

I can't tell whether Denis Drew is serious or joking, he's that good.

As for "methinks", it's not "society" that supports the current situation, it's our corrupt elites. As for the "powerless people", that would be the rest of us. Illegal aliens have some pretty powerful friends.

[Denis Drew]

Says,
American labor is powerless because it forgot it cannot just go out and take anything employers offer -- we forgot to bargain from STRENGTH. About 30 years ago I was in Teamsters local 804 for about a year -- Ron Carey (later international president) local president.

The one warehouse stockman contract meeting I went to I sensed Carey was calling a strike for one day -- "I'm not saying there's a dollar there; worth five dollars/wk today -- just to let these super militant guys get strike out or their system (probably with a wink from nervous management). Sure enough, the next day there was a dollar there: 18 dollars a week more over three years ($90 today).

Recently 804's defined pension was raised from $3300/mo to $3600/mo -- all based on securities owned by the union itself; doesn't matter who goes out of business.

These guys are just truck drivers (UPS) and warehouse stockmen -- they are neither high tech nor highly educated. They work in a rich country and they expect to get paid like they work in a rich country. For perspective, aviation mechanics in India don't expect to get paid much because their country cannot afford to pay much.

If you told Americans 40 years ago that by now 25% of our workforce would be earning less than LBJ's minimum wage ($10/hr in today's money) they would have thought it would take WWIII or multiple depressions or plagues or something equivalent. Average income is supposed to DOUBLE over 40 years -- AND IT DID. But it all slipped out of American workers hands because nobody ever told them what was happening to them (the old frog in the gradually heating pot thing).

That's why I say that after American labor gets its mojo back it will be time to get seriously worried about the Mexicans. There is so much money to be made just for doing the same things we are doing now that once we latch on to it we will have enough to relax about helping someone else. The way economics work, they tell us, that as long as there is enough INVESTMENT to make Mexican workers productive, nobody has to lose a thing.

Sector-wide labor agreements are the bargaining power equivalent of power steering and power brakes to put less excessively testosteroned (than my crazy Teamsters) employees effectively in the drivers seat: the only way to end the race to the bottom.

BTW, in case you are wondering about any Marxist leanings, I am heavy prolife and prowar. :-[ Seriously.

[BAWDYSCOT]

The right wing complains the illegals get all kinds of government services and they are not citizens and then we put them into prisons where all there needs are paid by tax payers. Where is the sanity in that?

[Jim D]

The headline is wrong. It should read: "Identity thieves sent to prison".

Because, of course, that's what we're talking about, right? Identity theft. They used false documents, with false SSNs.

How odd that the entire blog article would fail to address this simple criminal act.

As other comments noted, citizens are routinely sent to prison for this fraud.

[methinks]

Jim D says...
The headline is wrong. It should read: "Identity thieves sent to prison".

How do you know that some persons identity was stolen? Was that the charge? And just what
does that mean? Does it mean that they illegally paid into some one's FICA account? They paid into an account which they can never collect.
This post is subterfuge. You might get away with talking trash on Limbaugh or O'Reilly, but it's not going to fly here.

[save_the_rustbelt]

methinks:

I have worked with the victims of identity theft, and it is often a disaster.

Imagine being arrested for passing bad checks in a place you have never been, with a bank account you never opened.

Imagine getting a bill from the IRS for income you never earned.

The best story is the 4 year old on the east coast whose California house went into foreclosure.

The SSA and IRS spends huge amounts of administrative time (read: taxpayers money) trying to sort out the mess.

Identity theft is a huge problem for the victims. The elderly are frequent targets.

Your sarcasm is misdirected, because you don't know what you are talking about. Apologize to Jim D please.

[Bob]

Republican leadership is against illegal immigrants ?

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Thats a good one. The crackdown is all propaganda.

Remember when raygun gave amnesty to 5 million of them back in the 80's.

or this

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/
fullpage.html?res=9C01E2DA1031F934A35752C0A9629C8B63

clip -

President Bush will propose a sweeping overhaul of the nation's immigration laws on Wednesday that could give legal status to millions of undocumented workers in the United States, senior administration officials said Tuesday night.

or this

Bush removes provision requiring back taxes from illegal immigrants

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/
washington/articles/2007/05/19/
bush_removes_provision_requiring_back_taxes_from_illegal_immigrants/

[Real Person from the Real World]

Jailing and chaining up people, for just trying to make a living, even if illegally here, while the managers running the plant where these people worked are getting off scotfree..... now here is something to complain about. Where is Anne's cyber blogging bots? Lots of complaints about Iraq, and no bones about it, most of us loathe that war, but barely a peep here, except some rabbi somewhere says he won't buy meat from them.... and at a "bat" not "bar" mitsva. That'll teach those managers a lesson. So is Anne maybe a feminist?

[Bob]

I consider myself to be pretty far left wing and i have one question for any other left wingers who don't want a crackdown on the use of illegal labor.

When did liberals decide that scabs are OK ?

If you look at the numbers illegals especially hurt the poorest working americans and they drive down wages.

So I'm just trying to understand why liberals should come to the defense of law breakers that are hurting the poorest americans.

I guess Cesar Chavez would have wanted the question explained to him too since Chavez led protests against the use of illegal immigrant labor.

It should be obvious that the crackdown on illegals is also the way the the republicans are going to protect the real criminals here.

The illegal employers.

[Real Person from the Real World]

CHEAP labor vs a fair wage. Legal immigrants get jobs at the top paying end, illegal immigrants at the bottom end. Maybe we'll get a few cents off per pound of ground beef, and still be able to afford it, provided we have a job, or a job that allows us to buy more then macaroni.

[Bob]

They passed strict anti-illegal immigrant laws in Oklahoma and Arizona.

The result is that unemployment dropped like a rock in those 2 states during a recession when it's going up in most other places.

So at least in OK and AZ lot of previously unemployed americans are finding work and the illegals aren't.

Explain to me why thats bad.

[Bob]

Look at the reaction to Spitzers attempt to give drivers licences to illegals in the liberal state of NY.

He lost about 40 points off his approval rating in 2 weeks and ended up backing down.

That shows that there isn't across the board support for illegals among liberals.

[Real Person from the Real World]

my comment is that jobs are being lost to both illegal and legal immigrants. The legal ones get the high paying ones, and get job experience an American lost, and will eventually get bigger and better jobs, while the American loses ground. The illegal immigrants cross a porous border, and are running from bad conditions. Their labor allows either of 2 things. Cheaper meat (more for the well off, and those who can afford it) or more profit for the meat plant owners (they can afford to buy more). Meanwhile most of us are losing ground, and all you can gripe about is they are "il"legal.

[methinks]

save_the_rustbelt says..
"Identity theft is a huge problem for the victims.Your sarcasm is misdirected, because you don't know what you are talking about."

The 270 Guatemalans who were arrested stole someone's identity? How do you know that?

Bob says...
"If you look at the numbers illegals especially hurt the poorest working americans and they drive down wages."

That is exactly what they are here to do. Do "show trials" solve or even put a dent in the problem?
This "theatre" is to whip up the troglodytes, and use the undocumented as scapegoats for an economy that is about to implode.
Twelve million undocumented workers just walked in when the government wasn't looking, right? As I said earlier, society works just the way it is supposed to. This issue could be resolved if they wanted a resolution.

[Bob]

>> That is exactly what they are here to do. (hurt the poorest americans)

I fully understand that.

No my question was with all this classic scab behavior by the illegals (taking other peoples jobs and not caring about how bad they are screwing american workers) why are some liberals defending them.

[methinks]

Bob: Is it a crime to try and feed your family? What would you do if you were Guatemalan?

In 1954, the US overthrew the democratically elected government of Jocobo Arbenz after he tried to nationalize the United Fruit Co. For 30 years the US funded and trained Guatemalan forces in their "dirty war." It was estimated that 100,000 were killed and 40,000 were "disappeared."
I think americans need to ask themselves why it is that Guatemala is so poor.

[ken melvin]

The illegals were there because the plants were there as part of a grand scheme to break the unions; one initiated by St. ronnie. they knew they could never pull it off in Chicago or Kansas City.

[anne]

"So is ---- maybe a feminist?"

Notice the bullying sexist viciousness.

[anne]

"According to Jewish Law, every Jewish girl becomes a bat mitzvah at age 12."

"According to Jewish Law, every Jewish boy becomes a bar mitzvah at age 12."

[anne]

Methinks:

"In 1954, the US overthrew the democratically elected government of Jocobo Arbenz after he tried to nationalize the United Fruit Co. For 30 years the US funded and trained Guatemalan forces in their 'dirty war.' It was estimated that 100,000 were killed and 40,000 were 'disappeared.'

"I think Americans need to ask themselves why it is that Guatemala is so poor."

[Jim D]

methinks:

If you read the article, you'd notice what crimes they were charged with: document fraud, and also identity theft.

"Until now, relatively few immigrants caught in raids have been charged with federal crimes like identity theft or document fraud."

It's previously been reported that some of the arrested had completely bogus identity papers, while others had stolen identities. If you're too lazy to do the Googling, I'm not going to help you.

But you go further:

Is it a crime to try and feed your family?

No, but it is a crime to forge government documents. Or should we start looking the other way on all laws now? Or just the ones you dislike? Perhaps you could give us a list?

Let me explain why I dislike this bleeding heart crap that you spout: Most of my friends are immigrants. My wife is an immigrant. Most of my coworkers are immigrants. All of them legal.

And they all have one thing in common: many, many, friends, family members, all patiently waiting to come over here, LEGALLY, to join them.

I have college educated family in Burma. Why should the uneducated Guatemalan peasant get preference over them because they're willing to break the law? I assure you, they're no less hungry, especially this month. Although I have no personal knowledge of a case, it's certain that some died waiting their turn this month, while the Guatemalans you're a fan of broke the law.

My heart bleeds as much as yours, I assure you: I just save it for the people waiting their turn, following the rules, and getting screwed over because of people like you championing the lawbreakers. (Which typically include their employers, by the way.)

[Bob]

>> Bob: Is it a crime to try and feed your family?

Well thats what i would ask those who defend the illegals. Is it wrong for poor americans to feed their families. Is it right for a scab to screw them over when the scab is not even from this country.

>> What would you do if you were Guatemalan?

Well as somebody that lived dirt poor for a good 15 years what i did was decide not to have a family and bring someone in this world simply to suffer deprivation.

If you are poor and you decide to have a child you are being selfish.

[Bob]

>> "I think Americans need to ask themselves why it is that Guatemala is so poor."

I have said in other forums that once the illegals go back to mexico or wherever it is the duty of liberals in this country to help them organize and unionize in their respective countrys.

But no REAL union would allow scabs to bust them. The illegals are unorganized labor. Workers as a whole can't advance unless they are organized.

[methinks]

Jim D:

Who are the real criminals? You don't want to look at that, do you?

The government allowed workers from India to come in here legally to assist with the cleanup after Katrina. Why? There were no americans who needed work? Why is the government allowing computer programmers and engineers to come in on temporary visas? There are no americans to fill these slots?
They are importing these workers to undercut wages and benefits. That's why "illegals" are here and won't be going away anytime soon. As I said, society work exactly the way it is supposed to.

[Bob]

>> That's why "illegals" are here and won't be going away anytime soon.

I would suggest that one not be too sure about the inevitability of any event.

There are many cases of the powerful in america having their best laid plans ruined.

I can't think of better examples than the 2 Bushs to illustrate that lesson.

[Jim D]

"Who are the real criminals? You don't want to look at that, do you?"

Who are the real criminals? The people who broke the law. This isn't that complicated.

You never answered my question: Which laws do you believe we should be ignoring, then? May I have a list?

Also, why should the Guatemalan peasant get preference over the Burmese teacher waiting her turn? Please answer.

[methinks]

Jim D says...
"You never answered my question: Which laws do you believe we should be ignoring, then? May I have a list? Also, why should the Guatemalan peasant get preference over the Burmese teacher waiting her turn? Please answer.

1.) What laws has our government been ignoring and selectively enforcing? That the list.
2.) Why should we allow a Burmese teacher into the US while we have teachers who are unemployed? At least we can have the Guatemalan do the s#*t work for slave wages. We can chew him up and spit him out. We can use him twice. Once to keep wages down-pressed, and then again as fodder for the Neanderthals and vigilantes. We can direct peoples' anger at them instead of the source, just like So. Africa.

[Jim D]

"What laws has our government been ignoring and selectively enforcing? That the list."

That they ignored them for so long is a tragedy. That they are now enforcing them is not. I'm curious what evidence you have of selective enforcement.

Additionally, US Citizens are routinely prosecuted for using fake identity papers. To advocate that illegal immigrants get a free pass is in fact to advocate for the selective enforcement you seem to decry.

"We can chew him up and spit him out. We can use him twice. Once to keep wages down-pressed, and then again as fodder for the Neanderthals and vigilantes."

I'm neither Neanderthal nor vigilante. And kindly screw yourself for suggesting so.

"Why should we allow a Burmese teacher into the US while we have teachers who are unemployed?"

I'm unaware of any. Pretty much anyone who wants a teacher's job can get one. All it requires is masochism and credentials.

There is, however, evidence that the Guatemalan displaced an American worker, since those jobs were, in fact, filled by American workers after the raid.

So, to restate: the people who jumped in line shouldn't get privilege over and above the people who waited their turn. To advocate that they should is unjust. You are advocating they should be given privilege over those who obeyed the law, and thus you are advocating an unjust position.

[Jim D]

Whoops, I just noticed that it was methinks who said:

"You might get away with talking trash on Limbaugh or O'Reilly, but it's not going to fly here."

And who then said:
"Why should we allow a Burmese teacher into the US while we have teachers who are unemployed? "

So it would seem he's talking both sides of the issue.

Since I have no interest in arguing with a sock puppet, I'll be ignoring the rest of his/her/its comments. Regardless, I trust I've made my case to those who actually aren't here just to argue, but rather to listen.

[methinks]

Hey, Jim: We're all illegal! Wrap your ferocious intellect around that one.

I think it was Mark Twain who said: "What you need to get along in America is just the right amount of arrogance and ignorance."

[a legal immigrant]

"Hey, Jim: We're all illegal! Wrap your ferocious intellect around that one."

What a load of bs.

[save_the_rustbelt]

"The 270 Guatemalans who were arrested stole someone's identity? How do you know that?"

All of the 270 either:

1) bought forged documents with phony SSNs, or

2) bought forged or stolen documents using actual SSNs, therefore identity theft

Odds are it was a mixture of both.

There are hundreds of pages of testimony before various House committees, interesting reading.

SSA has to deal with about 8 million bogus or misused SSNs every year. Excluding typos, SSN thinks most are used by illegals.

[Real Person from the Real World]

response to
"anne says...

"So is ---- maybe a feminist?"

Notice the bullying sexist viciousness.

"According to Jewish Law, every Jewish girl becomes a bat mitzvah at age 12."

"According to Jewish Law, every Jewish boy becomes a bar mitzvah at age 12."

===========
1) Why was the incidental detail that you went to a "bat" mitzvah pertinent to your argument at all? I think you were just showing off your liberalism.
2) The joke is on you, I am not male.

[BJ Feng]

My uncle and cousins waited 11 years before their number finally came up and they were allowed to immigrate to the United States. They are all working now and the cousins are in college or heading to college.

It is incredibly unfair for illegals to cut in line and screw others out of jobs and spot in schools. The number of available jobs isn't endless, if a billion people were allowed to enter per year, there certainly would be a job shortage and a lot of social turmoil in this nation. That's why we have a quota per year and immigration laws, so that immigrants receive a fair opportunity to succeed, and residents aren't overwhelmed by competition.

Too high of a number and the entire process becomes tainted. Residents become resentful as they have to fight for scarce jobs and a decent education for their children. Immigrants feel alienated and don't assimilate. Everyone would be better off with an enforced limit to immigration.

Pro-illegal immigration advocates don't have a leg to stand on. Instead of arguing that the current legal limit is too low, they argue that there should be no limit, which makes no logical sense. It's about time that immigration laws are enforced.

[methinks]

Allowing people to come into this country, whether it is H-1b workers, temporary workers, "illegal" workers- outside the regular immigration process- was and is a conscious decision and policy implemented by your Masters. These workers are and have been used to keep wages depressed for the last 35 years. Now that their system is in crises they are going to blame the undocumented, and destroy families who have been here for a good part of their life by suddenly enforcing immigration laws.
I read some of you fools talking about "fairness." Since when has the immigration system been fair? Who gets admitted and from what country is one of the most politicized processes in government. Just look at how differently Cubans and Haitians are treated, as one example. There are many.
The government pulls the strings and you marionettes jump on the wagon.
How did you get so stupid? I ask myself that question every day.

[mikx]

Now that their system is in crises they (ed. US government?) are going to blame the undocumented, and destroy families who have been here for a good part of their life by suddenly enforcing immigration laws.

What country you are living in?

In this country the current joke-of-the-President and all 3 contenders are strong supporters of "comprehensive immigration reform", ie full amnesty for 15-20 million illegals.

In US English undocumented immigrant is the one who lost his documents.

What does undocumented immigrant mean in your country English?

[methinks]

Mikx says:
"In this country the current joke-of-the-President and all 3 contenders are strong supporters of "comprehensive immigration reform", ie full amnesty for 15-20 million illegals."

Really? Where did you get this from? Is that why "illegals" in Waterloo, Iowa were recently charged criminally (this is new) instead of civilly for being here undocumented. And will do time in prison before being deported. Is this the "reform" that Bush and the presidential contenders are in favor of? There will be no "comprehensive immigration reform." If these workers were legal, it would be difficult to treat them as modern-day slaves, which is what they are and why they're here. I know it's difficult, but try to think.

[BJ Feng]

"If these workers were legal..."

That's quite a big if there, don't you think?

The only reason there was no comprehensive amnesty bill was because the outrage was so great, that the elites had to back down, not once, but twice. I've never seen anything like it, the bigwigs determined to push through bad legislation, and ordinary people rallying to stop it, twice. When the amnesty bill came back for a second try, I thought the people had lost, surely they had enough votes, but the outrage was even greater. Here in California, Senator Feinstein said she received several HUNDRED THOUSAND phone calls, more than 95% against. And lest you get the wrong idea, a majority of both Democrats and Republicans are against illegal immigration.

Methinks, your argument seems to center around some perceived wrongs of the past, I don't think they tie in well with illegal immigration, but I don't blame you for trying. Simply put, there isn't a much of an argument you can make. Every nation has borders and there's no reason why the United States should be the only one without, especially when Mexico actively enforces its own borders to the south.

[Icarus]

So what exactly is the bleeding heart liberal argument?...if you manage to illegally sneak into the US, you now deserve the rights of citizenship? Is that the essential argument?

So, who do we exclude? Are there filters for immigration? Do we even need immigration policy?

They'll have no rational answer. The blame always goes to someone else.

If management becomes ultra diligent in checking paperwork, essentially acting as a validation step, they will be vilified for unfair scrutiny.

If management doesn't act as a document validation step, they are now complicit.

Liberals want higher wages, but more immigration (nice sweet, but idiotic combo)...

Is the only difference between my Indian cousin and my Mexican neighbor proximity? If I can sneak someone in, have I succeeded in providing a immigration method?

[Nathan Pancratz]

NoMoreBlatherDotCom says: "As for Nathan Pancratz' concerns, one might wonder why the plant was located in a very small town with few local workers in the first place."

I don't doubt that the firm's choice of location involved consideration of labor costs. That's one of the functions of a business.

NoMoreBlatherDotCom says: "And one might look into a similar raid in GA a while back, where the plant had to raise wages - horrors! - and U.S. citizens were lined up to take the jobs."

It's not horrible to raise wages. But wages are a large part of cost, which affects profit (there's that dirty word), which is the primary incentive to create and run a given business, and businesses are what provide jobs.

Yes, as the price offered for a given unit of labor of a certain skillset increases, there will be, ceteris paribus (including nationality), an increase in the supply of that labor.